Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as available.

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Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as available.

Postby Sentinel » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:27 pm

It was being discussed in PW that the Mind Bleeder (MB) is an RCC and whether or not it was available to True Atlanteans (TA). It was confusing because Psycape (MB copied from Africa) states it is a human-like D-Bee. We determined that multiple sources cite that TA's can be MB's and that also other races that list it by exception can also be Mind Bleeders despite the RCC description being a D-bee. A later source D-bee of North America written after WB: Africa confirms that Mind Melter is a human mutant and not a d-bee as described in the MB RCC contained in Africa and Psyscape.

Dark Lord agrees but wishes to have the site sound off on the subject before approving TA's (and other races that list it) to be Mind Bleeders and how TA's and other races handle character creation using the MB's template. We posited that it would use the races attributes and not the Mind Bleeders RCC attributes provided, with the rest of character generation using Mind Bleeders abilities and psionics. If the race allowing Mind Bleeder has its own OCC skills and OCC related skills etc. those will be used in lieu of the Mind Bleeders unless the race allows the Mind Bleeders OCC skills to be used instead.

Sources for reference are.

DBs of NA, pg 135, Mind Bleeders

“Mind Bleeders Mind Bleeders are not "D-Bees," but human mutants with the ability to read minds and steal memories, skills, and I.S.P. 10 fuel their own psionic powers. To learn more about Mind Bleeders, read Rifts® World Book Four: Africa .”

SA2, pg 154, Amaki

“Psionic O.C.C.s: Many Amaki are master psionics. Mind melters are the most common (50%), although duelists, bursters and the equivalent to psi-stalkers and mind-bleeders also exist.”

Anvil Galaxy, pg 36, Faustian

“Available O.C.C.’s: Faustians may only select a Psychic O.C.C. They tend towards Mind Melters, Bursters, zappers, Psi-slayers and equivalent of Mind Bleeders (see Word Book 12: Psyscape for most of these Psychic OCC’s).”

Atlantis, pg 2,

"We have been deluged by fans asking about the Mind Bleeder, Temporal Wizard and Chaing-Ku, all of whom are mentioned in this book, but never described. The questions range from, "Was this a teaser or accidental omission?" to "Where are these O.C.C.s!? We need them!"

The Chaing-Ku are mentioned because they are the creators of tattoo magic and have great historical significance for Atlanteans. The Chaing-Ku dragons have not been seen for thousands of years and are believed to be extinct (GM's option, really). Consequently, I decided not to include their general stats in the Atlantis book. These dragons may play a part in one of our future world books and if so, I will include character information then.

In fact, the Chaing-Ku will appear in Rifts England.

A specific, S.D.C. Chaing-Ku villain can also be found in Villains Unlimited (see Chaing-Six — this is where the idea for it and tattoo magic started).

The temporal wizard will also appear in Rifts England. The mind bleeder will appear in Rifts Africa. And yes, the temporal wizard in Rifts is very different from the temporal wizard in Transdimensional TMNT."

WB 02 Atlantis pg 16

"Common divisions of O.C.C.s among True Atlanteans:
15% Ley Line Walkers
13% Shifters
12% Techno-Wizards
12% Temporal Wizards (see new O.C.C)
10% Undead Slayers (see new O.C.C.)
10% Stone Masters (see new O.C.C.)
9% Nomads (see new O.C.C.) 2% Mystics
5% Mind Melters 8% Other/Non-magic (any O.C.C.)
4% Mind Bleeders (see new O.C.C.)"

SotA, pg 49 True Atlantean RCC

“Psionics: Standard, basically the same as humans, complete with Master Psychics who can select psionic O.C.C.s such as Mind Melter, Mind Bleeder, Psi-Ghost, Burster, Zapper, etc. (See Rifts® World Book 12: Psyscape for a large range of Psychic O.C.C.s.)”

Edit: Corrected human-like mutant to human mutant. It was a misattribution. Sorry for the confusion.
Last edited by Sentinel on Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Augur » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:58 pm

human-like = NOT human

"human-like mutant" =/= human

"human-like mutant" =/= mutant human

not a d-bee = human

"A later source D-bee of North America written after WB: Africa confirms that Mind Melter is a human-like mutant and not a d-bee..."

The above doesn't make sense as a proposition.
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Zilant » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:59 pm

I would likely consider a Mind Bleeder as kind of a Hybrid mutation somewhere between the Mind Melter and the Psi-Stalker. They have the capacity for a wide variety of psychic powers, like a Mind Melter, but a need to feed on the psychic energy of others, like a Psi-Stalker (though not exactly the same). That said, I see not particular reason to consider them a separate species or restrict creatures capable of being Master Psionics from being one. (In Rifts at least)
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Dark Lord » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:36 pm

Augur wrote:human-like = NOT human
"human-like mutant" =/= human
"human-like mutant" =/= mutant human
not a d-bee = human
"A later source D-bee of North America written after WB: Africa confirms that Mind Melter is a human-like mutant and not a d-bee..."
The above doesn't make sense as a proposition.

Therein lies the rub. Technically, the most recent canon source refers to MBs as an OCC. I had originally ruled that an error on Palladium's part, but the existence of MB equivalents elsewhere in the canon lends credence to the theory that it was intended to be available beyond the exclusive OCC. The canon for this class is a hot mess, which is why I requested a community ruling on this. The books refer to it alternately as an OCC, an RCC, a D-Bee, and a human mutant.

As I see it, we have three options:

1) Hard-nosed, original interpretation- restrict MBs as an RCC, ignoring all canon to the contrary.
2) Hard-nosed, most recent interpretation- strip out the attributes and other racial features from the character class, ignoring the canonical RCC writeup, and effectively convert it to an OCC with racial restrictions.
3) Devise a mind bleeder equivalent that is available to the Amaki, the Faustians, the TAs, and possibly others. This could entail changes to the character class abilities (e.g., equivalent to the reduction in base PPE for non-Atlantean Stone Masters), or just effectively be option #2 above.
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Sentinel » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:50 pm

Dark Lord wrote:
Augur wrote:human-like = NOT human
"human-like mutant" =/= human
"human-like mutant" =/= mutant human
not a d-bee = human
"A later source D-bee of North America written after WB: Africa confirms that Mind Melter is a human-like mutant and not a d-bee..."
The above doesn't make sense as a proposition.

Therein lies the rub. Technically, the most recent canon source refers to MBs as an OCC. I had originally ruled that an error on Palladium's part, but the existence of MB equivalents elsewhere in the canon lends credence to the theory that it was intended to be available beyond the exclusive OCC. The canon for this class is a hot mess, which is why I requested a community ruling on this. The books refer to it alternately as an OCC, an RCC, a D-Bee, and a human mutant.

As I see it, we have three options:

1) Hard-nosed, original interpretation- restrict MBs as an RCC, ignoring all canon to the contrary.
2) Hard-nosed, most recent interpretation- strip out the attributes and other racial features from the character class, ignoring the canonical RCC writeup, and effectively convert it to an OCC with racial restrictions.
3) Devise a mind bleeder equivalent that is available to the Amaki, the Faustians, the TAs, and possibly others. This could entail changes to the character class abilities (e.g., equivalent to the reduction in base PPE for non-Atlantean Stone Masters), or just effectively be option #2 above.


Augur's comment was in regards to typos in my explanation of the sources. I corrected and sorry for the confusion.

If I was clear basically yes just treat mind bleeder entry as an occ for those races that allow it and those races disregard the attribute roles listed under Mind Bleeder. Skills are used based on the race description. If the race has no OCC skills listed then default to mind bleeders RCC choices. Pretty straight forwards I hope.
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Ectype P.P.E.: 236/236 | H.P.: N/A | S.D.C.: 495/495 Equipment: Mobile Compact Computer/ HUD interface, Neckband Radio/ID transponders
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Augur » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:48 pm

Dark Lord wrote:As I see it, we have three options:

1) Hard-nosed, original interpretation- restrict MBs as an RCC, ignoring all canon to the contrary.
2) Hard-nosed, most recent interpretation- strip out the attributes and other racial features from the character class, ignoring the canonical RCC writeup, and effectively convert it to an OCC with racial restrictions.
3) Devise a mind bleeder equivalent that is available to the Amaki, the Faustians, the TAs, and possibly others. This could entail changes to the character class abilities (e.g., equivalent to the reduction in base PPE for non-Atlantean Stone Masters), or just effectively be option #2 above.

Option #4:

I create an EP contest for the Spring to this purpose.

The winning submission becomes canon!
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Tyrannosapiens Rex » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:48 pm

2) Hard-nosed new interpretation. Voted yes.
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Captain Marks » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:39 am

Dark Lord wrote:Therein lies the rub. Technically, the most recent canon source refers to MBs as an OCC. I had originally ruled that an error on Palladium's part, but the existence of MB equivalents elsewhere in the canon lends credence to the theory that it was intended to be available beyond the exclusive OCC. The canon for this class is a hot mess, which is why I requested a community ruling on this. The books refer to it alternately as an OCC, an RCC, a D-Bee, and a human mutant.

As I see it, we have three options:

1) Hard-nosed, original interpretation- restrict MBs as an RCC, ignoring all canon to the contrary.
2) Hard-nosed, most recent interpretation- strip out the attributes and other racial features from the character class, ignoring the canonical RCC writeup, and effectively convert it to an OCC with racial restrictions.
3) Devise a mind bleeder equivalent that is available to the Amaki, the Faustians, the TAs, and possibly others. This could entail changes to the character class abilities (e.g., equivalent to the reduction in base PPE for non-Atlantean Stone Masters), or just effectively be option #2 above.


Selection 2.

Always better to do less work when it's already done for us, eh? For the sake of clarification of "character class" I provide answer below.

Follow the way any Race + OOC are handled:

A) Pick the eligible race with OOC combination. In this instance Regard the Psyscape pg 53 for Mind Bleeder for class features.

B) Replace the "Attribute" line for those of the selected eligible species, whether they be Amaki, Faustian, True Atlantean or any other species located later that lists Mind Bleeder as eligible and is an approved race selection.

C) For O.O.C. Skills use the verbiage (read rules) from the originating Race or O.O.C. stating it can be a Mind Bleeder. If that Race or O.O.C. does not provide guidance, use the Mind Bleeder skills. This is to adhere to the referencing Race/O.O.C. to maintain consistency to unique Race/O.O.C profiles.
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Re: Mind Bleeder available to races that list it as availabl

Postby Augur » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:33 pm

So the issue at hand has been researched, explicated, and delineated quite thoroughly.

The crux of the matter, in brief, is that Mind Bleeder is presented originally (in WB4) as a race (R.C.C.) of D-bees, but in practically all subsequent material, it is referred to as though a class (P.C.C.) like Mind Melter, Burster, etc.

I'm going to err on the side of quantity and recency.

Judgment:
A Mind Bleeder is not a specific species of D-bee. A Mind Bleeder is a P.C.C. restricted to those races which list it as an option.
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