Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

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Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby John Altfeld » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:27 pm

Since there are a number of places in Palladium canon where it mentions being able to train in a new style of martial art or learning improved HtH, but there is no mechanic for this, I propose we add it to the EP menu. A particularly egregious example is the Golden Dragon Dojo in MercTown which mentions something like 8 exotic martial arts styles that can be learned.

Based on a previous conversation with Augur, this would look like:

Change HtH style to Any Other Available from an In-Game Trainer: 5 EP (3 EP at Diamond Tier)

A more complicated proposal would be:
Increase HtH Basic to HtH Expert: 2 EP
Increase HtH Expert to HtH Martial Arts: 3 EP
Increase HtH Martial Arts to HtH Assassin, Commando, or any Exotic: 5 EP
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Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 7
Initiative Bonus: +8
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +13 (+13/+13/+15/+15)
Dodge Bonus: +16/+20 (+16/+16/+12/+12)/(+20/+20/+16/+16)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +4 (+4/+4/+0/+0)
Bonus to Disarm: +2
Called Shots: +4
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+8/5d6(6d6)+8/1d6x10+18(+28)/1d6x10+58(+68)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400"
• See the invisible
• Nightvision 600'
• Recognize enchantment (63%)
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Brute » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:09 pm

John Altfeld wrote:Since there are a number of places in Palladium canon where it mentions being able to train in a new style of martial art or learning improved HtH, but there is no mechanic for this, I propose we add it to the EP menu. A particularly egregious example is the Golden Dragon Dojo in MercTown which mentions something like 8 exotic martial arts styles that can be learned.

Based on a previous conversation with Augur, this would look like:

Change HtH style to Any Other Available from an In-Game Trainer: 5 EP (3 EP at Diamond Tier)

A more complicated proposal would be:
Increase HtH Basic to HtH Expert: 2 EP
Increase HtH Expert to HtH Martial Arts: 3 EP
Increase HtH Martial Arts to HtH Assassin, Commando, or any Exotic: 5 EP


Per RUE p. 316, HTH Expert costs 2 skill selections to learn, Martial arts and assassin cost 3. Commando is available only by O.C.C. So the equivalent EP menu would be:

Increase HtH Basic to HtH Expert: 2 EP
Increase HtH Expert to HtH Martial Arts or Assassin: 4 EP
Increase HtH Martial Arts to HtH Commando, or any Exotic: 6 EP (as these are "normally unavailable" for most)

But I'll note there's already an EP function for buying new skills.
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Tiree » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:44 pm

I agree with Brute. But I also think it should be more expensive as well. Not only should you have to pay for the new skill (using the method prescribed above), but in order to do a swap at current level, it should be another 5 EP.

Because right now I could have my character that's 9th Level purchase HTH Commando for 6 EP. But it will start at 1st Level. I'll have to HTH Styles, each round I choose what style. But an 'Upgrade the Level' to a combat skill is 5 EP per level - so another 40 EP it will be the same level as the rest of my character.

But for 11 EP - massive cost break, and I convert one skill for another one. Looking at it: It should cost 15 or more!
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby John Altfeld » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:21 pm

I think Brute's suggestion makes sense and is in line with what I was trying to do. I'm not going to quibble over a 1 EP difference.

The reason we need this clarification is that I specifically asked Augur about it and he told me that it isn't currently covered, so it needed a post in this board. I brought it up mainly because of the noted Golden Dragon Dojo entry, which include things like the Samurai-Only Zenshen-Whateveritis martial art at like 100 credits per session, complete after a couple months of weekly sessions. Seriously, look at that particular entry. To me it's clear that Palladium was trying to offer a way to retrain in a broad array of martial arts.

To Tiree's point, that's just a crazy amount of EP for a marginal benefit. Most HtH styles don't get you better benefits than Martial Arts (which is only slightly better than Expert). The only two I've noted so far are Commando (auto-dodge for non-Juicers/Crazies) and Samurai Zenshen-Whateveritis (Mostly due to attribute bonuses and a couple others).

Also, in Palladium you're only allowed ONE HtH skill, and what you're suggesting seems like a LOT of book-keeping for both players and GMs.
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P.P.E.: 16/16
H.P./M.D.C.: 62/62
Pebble M.D.C.: 300/300
Growth M.D.C.: +15/+150/+525/+1,230/15/150/510/1,230

Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 7
Initiative Bonus: +8
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +13 (+13/+13/+15/+15)
Dodge Bonus: +16/+20 (+16/+16/+12/+12)/(+20/+20/+16/+16)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +4 (+4/+4/+0/+0)
Bonus to Disarm: +2
Called Shots: +4
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+8/5d6(6d6)+8/1d6x10+18(+28)/1d6x10+58(+68)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400"
• See the invisible
• Nightvision 600'
• Recognize enchantment (63%)
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Tiree » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:51 am

John Altfeld wrote:Also, in Palladium you're only allowed ONE HtH skill, and what you're suggesting seems like a LOT of book-keeping for both players and GMs.

Actually the rules for multiple martial arts are found in Ninja's and Superspies. It's also a component of switching classes to understand how this works.

But because I'm trying to be realistic - Converting Skills should be expensive but not too expensive (Especially if you expect it to be the same level of proficiency as your character currently is.). So I am suggesting that if you are to convert a skill from HTH Expert to Commando - it should cost you 15 EP. If you want to go from Basic to Martial Arts, it should cost 15 EP.

But as pointed out, without no fiat rule of cost: HTH Martial Arts is 3 skill selections, and that's combat skill selections. So it will fall under one of the following cost break down by your class (EP Prices are for non-Patron's):

(4 EP) Skill Download: New O.C.C. Related Skill
(6 EP) Skill Download: Normally Unavailable Skill

So, if I have a class that normally doesn't get said Martial Arts, that's 18 EP. One that does is 12 EP
But going from Basic to Expert that's 2 skills and that would be 8 EP (possibly 12, I doubt that there is a class that doesn't get access to this skill).

I want to say, HTH Commando I have seen costs 4 skill selections - so even more.

But because how EU is set up, and how EP is set up. Skills purchased with EP start at 1st Level. Now you either have to level it normally, or power it up through more EP.
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby John Altfeld » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:03 am

Ah, now I see the disconnect - you're treating this as buying a new skill, whereas I'm treating this as improving an existing skill. That is, transforming HtH Expert into HtH Martial Arts.

I think it's also completely reasonable to break down the total cost by skill purchase requirements as you've done (that is, moving from Basic to Martial Arts is equivalent to purchasing two additional skills, whether in or out of class).

However, I would advocate strongly against treating this skill as 'new' rather than an upgrade to an existing skill, unless the character is being given multiple different advanced martial arts styles. Having only one HtH skill (of whatever type) at the character level is not game-breaking; but requiring, say, a level 8 character to spend 30 or more EP to get a new HtH skill means the option will never be used.

And having multiple 1st level martial arts will, counter-intuitively, end up being extremely powerful over time as they stack attribute bonuses.
Definitely Not a God. Yet.
P.P.E.: 16/16
H.P./M.D.C.: 62/62
Pebble M.D.C.: 300/300
Growth M.D.C.: +15/+150/+525/+1,230/15/150/510/1,230

Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 7
Initiative Bonus: +8
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +13 (+13/+13/+15/+15)
Dodge Bonus: +16/+20 (+16/+16/+12/+12)/(+20/+20/+16/+16)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +4 (+4/+4/+0/+0)
Bonus to Disarm: +2
Called Shots: +4
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+8/5d6(6d6)+8/1d6x10+18(+28)/1d6x10+58(+68)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400"
• See the invisible
• Nightvision 600'
• Recognize enchantment (63%)
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Brute » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:32 am

John Altfeld wrote:Ah, now I see the disconnect - you're treating this as buying a new skill, whereas I'm treating this as improving an existing skill. That is, transforming HtH Expert into HtH Martial Arts.

I think it's also completely reasonable to break down the total cost by skill purchase requirements as you've done (that is, moving from Basic to Martial Arts is equivalent to purchasing two additional skills, whether in or out of class).

However, I would advocate strongly against treating this skill as 'new' rather than an upgrade to an existing skill, unless the character is being given multiple different advanced martial arts styles. Having only one HtH skill (of whatever type) at the character level is not game-breaking; but requiring, say, a level 8 character to spend 30 or more EP to get a new HtH skill means the option will never be used.

And having multiple 1st level martial arts will, counter-intuitively, end up being extremely powerful over time as they stack attribute bonuses.


But they ARE different skills, with different bonuses at different levels. Let's be clear: upgrading from basic to expert means you will essentially ERASE your basic HTH skills and add in your Expert skills.

For example: If you "upgrade" from lvl 1 Martial Arts to lvl 1 Assassin you LOSE your body flip/throw, one of your APM, and +3 to pull and roll. Then you substitute in an entirely different set of bonuses.
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Monstrous Form
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Omega Suit
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SDC: 250/250
Features:
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2) Built-in short range encrypted radio transceiver (Omega freq only).
3) Built-in RFID transponder for C.S.P.D. verifies wearer is a Centurion to all C.S.P.D. and their precise GPS location within 20'

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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Metri » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:46 am

John Altfeld wrote:Ah, now I see the disconnect - you're treating this as buying a new skill, whereas I'm treating this as improving an existing skill. That is, transforming HtH Expert into HtH Martial Arts.

I think it's also completely reasonable to break down the total cost by skill purchase requirements as you've done (that is, moving from Basic to Martial Arts is equivalent to purchasing two additional skills, whether in or out of class).

However, I would advocate strongly against treating this skill as 'new' rather than an upgrade to an existing skill, unless the character is being given multiple different advanced martial arts styles. Having only one HtH skill (of whatever type) at the character level is not game-breaking; but requiring, say, a level 8 character to spend 30 or more EP to get a new HtH skill means the option will never be used.

And having multiple 1st level martial arts will, counter-intuitively, end up being extremely powerful over time as they stack attribute bonuses.

Characters with multiple HtH are somewhat addressed in the Dual OCC rules. (reposted for convenience below)

Augur wrote:Rules For Hand to Hand Combat and Other Bonuses
● You never add together bonuses from two different Hand to Hand skills. The only exceptions to this are adding Power Armor/Robot combat bonuses to Hand to Hand bonuses while in a suit of power armor or a robot vehicle, and adding bonuses from zero-gravity combat training to Hand to Hand bonuses while in zero gravity.
● If your character has more than one Hand to Hand combat skill as a result of the adoption of a new O.C.C. your character will retain whichever HTH skill is the most advanced. Expert is more advanced than Basic, Martial Arts and Assassin (equal) are both more advanced than Expert, and so on. You will use the bonuses afforded to your character by the appropriate HTH skill that is retained. Be sure to take into account those which have already been incorporated into your character sheet from your previous HTH skill.
● You retain all special moves obtained from old Hand to Hand combat skills, but they are frozen at the last level of advancement.
● If your new class grants you the same Hand to Hand skill, that skill will remain frozen until you pass the level obtained by your old class, at which time it will advance again normally. The same principle applies to duplicate W.P.s.
● Obviously you never gain bonuses from a physical skill (or any other skill) twice, even if your new O.C.C. grants them automatically. Physical skills with percentages can be duplicated as normal, but still do not grant duplicate physical bonuses.
● Bonuses granted by the O.C.C. itself (rather than a Hand to Hand or other skill) are treated in the same way. That means that if one O.C.C. gave you a bonus of +3 to roll with punch/fall/impact and the new O.C.C. gave you a bonus of +2 to roll, your bonus would be +3 (in addition to bonuses from other sources). If your O.C.C. gives you a die number bonus (such as +1d4) then things are slightly more complicated. If your old bonus was static (such as +2), then you roll the new die bonus and keep the higher result (so if you had +2 and you rolled a 3 on a +1d4 then you would have a three). If both your old and new O.C.C. had a die number bonus then you roll a die equal to the difference in bonuses. Example: If your old O.C.C. had +1d4 to P.S. and your new O.C.C. has +1d6 then you roll +1d2 (coin flip or half result on most dice) and add the result.


I believe that anytime a player purchases a new HtH for a character, they do treat the HtH as a new skill starting at level 1. Grant Latham of H4H is a good example of a character that though is level 6 in his current advancement, has opted to spend EP to advance his ninjitsu/taijutsu HtH (up to level 13... so 7 times).

My understanding is that these EU rules are (as much as possible) based on Palladium canon, which is actually pretty particular about HtH rules and having only one active at a time (with no bonus stacking).

Another avenue to accomplish the "transforming" of HtH could be through Advanced Training. I don't have my book on me at this moment in time, but I believe one of them (close quarters combat AT or melee specialist or somesuch) allows you to 'transform' your HtH up one notch (basic->expert or expert->martial arts), maintaining current level of experience.
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby John Altfeld » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:15 pm

Thank you for quoting that! THAT is SUPER interesting.

Because it does two things:
1. It says that when you get a new HtH skill, it starts at level 1 (but only in context of class switching, which in Palladium canon starts ALL of your new class skills at level 1)
2. It reaffirms that you can only have ONE HtH skill and it's the one that's the 'most advanced' (which should probably be called 'highest quality' or 'most complex training' or something). So the Ninja & Superspies multiple styles rule go against these EU rules.

Still, this content is about characters who change OCC, not characters who are trying to improve an existing skill. (Also, Grant Latham having an above-leveled skill clearly falls into the existing rules).

shrug - hopefully Lloyd and/or the GMs read through all of this and make some kind of decision. I don't foresee a lot of people getting a new HtH skill once they're past level 4 or so though if it costs 30 points to level it. As I said before, the actual bonuses if you compare them at various levels of the HtH skills aren't very far apart with a couple exceptions.
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P.P.E.: 16/16
H.P./M.D.C.: 62/62
Pebble M.D.C.: 300/300
Growth M.D.C.: +15/+150/+525/+1,230/15/150/510/1,230

Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 7
Initiative Bonus: +8
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +13 (+13/+13/+15/+15)
Dodge Bonus: +16/+20 (+16/+16/+12/+12)/(+20/+20/+16/+16)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +4 (+4/+4/+0/+0)
Bonus to Disarm: +2
Called Shots: +4
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+8/5d6(6d6)+8/1d6x10+18(+28)/1d6x10+58(+68)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400"
• See the invisible
• Nightvision 600'
• Recognize enchantment (63%)
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Mad Scientist » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:24 pm

AT: Martial Training gives you H2H:MA if you don't already have it, and extra bonuses if you do. It does not explicitly specify that this replaces your current H2H at the equivalent level, rather than starting from Level 1 like other new skills.
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Tiree » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:19 pm

This comes from Ninja's and Superspies where you are allowed to have multiple forms of Martial Arts:

Page 82 wrote:Here's a few important things to bear in mind when selecting Martial Art forms.
1. Each form must be used separately. For example if your character gets a +2 to Parry in Tae Kwon Do, then that bonus can only be used when using Tae Kwon Do. It can not be used when performing any other form.
3. Receiving the same skill more than once in different Martial Art forms does not provide multiple bonuses or advancement. Remember each bonus applies to that one specific martial art form.


I'll be looking into Rifts World Book 25 China 2 for more 'current info'
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Pendragon » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:59 pm

Tiree wrote:This comes from Ninja's and Superspies where you are allowed to have multiple forms of Martial Arts:

Page 82 wrote:Here's a few important things to bear in mind when selecting Martial Art forms.
1. Each form must be used separately. For example if your character gets a +2 to Parry in Tae Kwon Do, then that bonus can only be used when using Tae Kwon Do. It can not be used when performing any other form.
3. Receiving the same skill more than once in different Martial Art forms does not provide multiple bonuses or advancement. Remember each bonus applies to that one specific martial art form.


I'll be looking into Rifts World Book 25 China 2 for more 'current info'


They are very similar. There's only two or three classes in all of Palladium that have multiple hand to hand combats.

The meditative Martial artist (as found in China 2) has two separate Hand to Hands. Note, that this does not include the extra issue that is MYSTICAL Hand to Hand, which is more akin to special abilities and psychic abilities than a formal hand to hand.
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby John Altfeld » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Pendragon wrote:
Tiree wrote:This comes from Ninja's and Superspies where you are allowed to have multiple forms of Martial Arts:

Page 82 wrote:Here's a few important things to bear in mind when selecting Martial Art forms.
1. Each form must be used separately. For example if your character gets a +2 to Parry in Tae Kwon Do, then that bonus can only be used when using Tae Kwon Do. It can not be used when performing any other form.
3. Receiving the same skill more than once in different Martial Art forms does not provide multiple bonuses or advancement. Remember each bonus applies to that one specific martial art form.


I'll be looking into Rifts World Book 25 China 2 for more 'current info'


They are very similar. There's only two or three classes in all of Palladium that have multiple hand to hand combats.

The meditative Martial artist (as found in China 2) has two separate Hand to Hands. Note, that this does not include the extra issue that is MYSTICAL Hand to Hand, which is more akin to special abilities and psychic abilities than a formal hand to hand.


Right, China completely streamlined/modified it so it's almost like having spell powers in addition to one core HtH skill. Which makes a lot more sense than that Ninjas and Superspies stuff with having to change the whole 'form.'
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P.P.E.: 16/16
H.P./M.D.C.: 62/62
Pebble M.D.C.: 300/300
Growth M.D.C.: +15/+150/+525/+1,230/15/150/510/1,230

Important Combat Stats
Number of Attacks: 7
Initiative Bonus: +8
Strike Bonus: +8 (+8/+8/+10/+10)
Parry Bonus: +13 (+13/+13/+15/+15)
Dodge Bonus: +16/+20 (+16/+16/+12/+12)/(+20/+20/+16/+16)
Auto-Dodge Bonus: +4 (+4/+4/+0/+0)
Bonus to Disarm: +2
Called Shots: +4
Supernatural Strength Punch Damage: 3d6(5d6)+8/5d6(6d6)+8/1d6x10+18(+28)/1d6x10+58(+68)
Juicer Football Body Block/Tackle: Knocks one's opponent to the ground (90% chance if target is smaller than attacker, 60% if the same weight, 50% if target is up to 50% larger, 20% if 100% larger, no chance if target is over 100% larger).
Immunities and Damage Reduction
Immune to:
• Cold
• Radiation
• Suffocation (can breathe without air)
• Depressurization
• Ocean depths/pressure (unlimited)
• Vampire bite/can't be turned undead
• Blindness and Darkness (except in smoke/sandstorm/fog that fouls Radar power)
• Fatigue (Never tires)
• Small bits of flying debris

Reduced Damage From:
• Magic Cold - Half Damage
• Heat/Fire - Half Damage
• Poison/Toxins/Drugs - Duration, penalties and symptoms are 1/3 normal
Enhanced Sight Effects
• Radar 400"
• See the invisible
• Nightvision 600'
• Recognize enchantment (63%)
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Re: Proposal: Add Changing HtH to EP Menu

Postby Augur » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:00 pm

Brute's argument is sound, and widely agreed upon regarding this proposal: a method already exists to this end.

If you'd like to write up explanatory notes to cover this, I'll happy add them to the existing Explanatory Notes post.
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