Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

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Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Underguard » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:02 am

Melee Two-Handed Weapon Rule.
Unless a weapon has multiple mechanisms that specifically state they require both hands to function, a weapon designed for two-hands due to strength ability (such as Greatswords, Mauls) can be wielded one-handed using the following rules.

If the Item is more than 20 lbs.
Normal P.S.: 28 or higher
Robotic/SuperHuman P.S.: 23 or higher
Supernatural P.S.: 19 or higher

If the Item is 20 lbs or less.
Normal P.S.: 25 or higher
Robotic/SuperHuman P.S.: 21 or higher
Supernatural P.S.: 17 or higher

Characters with the W.P. of given item do not lose their bonuses. Those without the needed W.P. suffer a -2 to Strike and Parry while wielding one-handed.
If wielded by Robotic/Superhuman or Supernatural (of appropriate level), no modifiers lost and no -2 to strike without the W.P.







Justifications:
Anyone can pick up an item and swing it around ungracefully, if they have the strength for it, with some degree of accuracy and speed. This assumes that a PC with a proper P.S. but without the W.P. can essential pick up an weapon or item regardless of its weight, and use one hand to move it. In example, Hulk picking up a tree log and swinging it one handed to wipe out a couple vehicles. He didn't get to use it repeatedly nor efficiently but it was a decent one hitter. Mechanically, it translates to a PC receiving a -2 to Strike/Parry with the item in question if they have the P.S. but not the W.P.
A demi-god, cyborg headhunter and juicer are all examples of Supernatural, Robotic and Superhuman strength. The idea of Super (ANYTHING) strength (or Robotic) is that is dwarfs standard physical strength. Incidentally, I personally think if they have any special class of strength such as these, there is no weight restriction on weapons. However, for the sake of mechanics, I included both in my set-up proposal. The rule stands that if they meet the required P.S. and are Robotic/SH/SN, they can wield it with zero negative modifiers and receive all of their normal H2H modifiers. They just don't get the bonuses from the W.P.

Personal reasoning and justifications: I am an Instructor and Black Belt in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts (Kung Fu, think Avatar TLA if you want visuals.) I have been training in this specific system for four years; this form practices with 18 traditional Shaolin Weapons. A few examples of the weapons I've personally trained with from this stack of 18 is a 25 lbs Dragon-Head Quan-Dao which stands about 7'6" (I am 5'11") and the Traditional Chinese Broadsword; my specific sword that I train with is 9.3 lbs, and I do a full weapons form (about 3-4 minutes) with that sword in one hand.

I make this proposal from a personal standpoint using my personal martial experience and logical knowledge. To further expand on this; the concept of a P.S. or Two-handed requirement on any weapon is always based on two things which translated into one. Weight and Size of the weapon, and ultimately just it's weight. And ultimately, as with any martial weapon, using the weight of a weapon to your advantage to continuously strike without getting fatigued is how martial fighters train. The Quan Dao in question I can personally swing one-handed for several rotations with a fair degree of accuracy using the weapon's weight as a guiding factor (obviously this isn't complex movements)

That same Quan-Dao I can wield, I have watched a much smaller and physically weaker individual wield with greater proficiency because of how they wield it and the time they've spent training with it (W.P. Understanding). Could they swing the Quan-Dao with one hand like a toothpick, no, for we are mere humans with limited physical strength capacities in the real world. The same can't be said for a world of magic, monsters, aliens and cybernetics/AI.

For example, A Robot, Cyborg or other form of Super Human with a SH/Robotic P.S. of 23 (which is on the low end for them) would have zero trouble with swinging around a 25 lbs Quan Dao like a toothpick in comparison to myself or even an average human in the settings.

A dimensional supernatural being (vampires, Demigods or anything) are hundreds times stronger than mundanes according to the book, and should also be able to swing these efficiently with ease.

Robotic/SH/SN strength eliminates the real-world application of strength restrictions for two-handed weapons as even the wimpiest supernatural creature is stronger than a strong human.

And any size restrictions is just a W.P. understanding. Once you know a weapon, have trained on it for years, it's size and weight to you is apart of how you wield it.

End Proposal





I am open to questions or revisions of this proposal.

Note: If you like this idea or support it, be vocal about it and respond :)
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Wolf Whitaker » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:43 pm

So I had a thought on this subject. What if we created a Weapon Proficiency for using two-handed weapons with one hand. I have not seen anything for it in the books I have access to, but the idea closely resemble parts of W.P. Sharpshooter. Specifically the part stating a player with WP Sharpshooter may fire and normally two handed firearm with one hand with full bonuses. If something like that was implemented for two handed melee weapons I believe it would accomplish what Underguard is looking for. Making this idea a W.P. would keep it from being over powered, as the character would have to take the W.P. to show training in using the weapon one handed, rather then just being strong. Additionally as a W.P. We can ensure it is for a specific weapon group rather then a blanket ability.

I foresee such a thing reading:

W.P. Weapon Affinity (Specific weapon class, ie. Hammers, Swords, Polearms, and so on)
-Character can wield a traditionally two-handed weapon, from the above category, in one hand with no penalties.

-If the Item is more than 20 lbs.
Normal P.S.: 28 or higher
Robotic/SuperHuman P.S.: 24 or higher
Supernatural P.S.: 20 or higher

-If the Item is 20 lbs or less.
Normal P.S.: 25 or higher
Robotic/SuperHuman P.S.: 21 or higher
Supernatural P.S.: 17 or higher

-This skill may be combined with W.P. Paired Weapons


If there are any additions or thoughts this generates please let me know. The ability is there for firearms, it should be there for melee weapons too.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Augur » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm

Item from armory wrote:[*]Modifiers: -2 to strike if operator’s P.S. is less than 21; backpack ammo-drum requires Augmented or greater P.S.


Account for the (many) examples of the above.

And no, Wolf, I'm definitely not keen on adding more skills.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Underguard » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:27 pm

Augur wrote:
Item from armory wrote:[*]Modifiers: -2 to strike if operator’s P.S. is less than 21; backpack ammo-drum requires Augmented or greater P.S.


Account for the (many) examples of the above.

And no, Wolf, I'm definitely not keen on adding more skills.


My thought is that anything written into the book for requirements regarding strength or mechanisms supersedes this rule. It is not designed to subvert acting or existing rules, it is designed to close the gap and is a modification to the existing Two Handed restriction. See below.

New Proposal wrote:Melee Two-Handed Weapon Rule.
Unless a weapon has multiple mechanisms that specifically state they require both hands to function, a weapon designed for two-hands due to strength ability (such as Greatswords, Mauls) can be wielded one-handed using the following rules.

If the Item is more than 20 lbs.
Normal P.S.: 28 or higher
Robotic/SuperHuman P.S.: 23 or higher
Supernatural P.S.: 19 or higher

If the Item is 20 lbs or less.
Normal P.S.: 25 or higher
Robotic/SuperHuman P.S.: 21 or higher
Supernatural P.S.: 17 or higher

Characters with the W.P. of given item do not lose their bonuses. Those without the needed W.P. suffer a -2 to Strike and Parry while wielding one-handed.
If wielded by Robotic/Superhuman or Supernatural (of appropriate level), no modifiers lost and no -2 to strike without the W.P.
Pre-existing book rules for requirements on specific weapons supersede this rule. Excluding the base Two-Handed feature.


Ideally, the answer is that as long as it is a martial melee weapon without complex controls requiring two hands, a weapon follows this rule.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Captain Cardea » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:12 am

I think this is a reasonable request. It could be for melee weapons only. Two hand requirements on modern fire arms or similar is different. But strength is a factor as well as size for two handed melee weapons for sure.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Underguard » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:25 am

Captain Cardea wrote:I think this is a reasonable request. It could be for melee weapons only. Two hand requirements on modern fire arms or similar is different. But strength is a factor as well as size for two handed melee weapons for sure.


Technically speaking, in terms of firing solely, this rule could apply to firearms as well.

The only reason firearms are two-handed is due to recoil and reloading. Sure, can't reload one handed. But leveling a shotgun or a rifle at someone and pulling the trigger with powerful strength would still allow for a variable degree of accuracy (I'd honestly keep the same strength rules and apply it that way as well, if we wanted to incorporate that.)

I've seen plenty of examples of super strong folks leveling shotguns at enemies with one hand in sci-fi tv shows and whatnot. Stargate SG-1 comes to mind, when Teal'c, the super strong alien (Jaffa) (Superhuman Strength) humanoid consistently levels a grenade launcher bad guys.
Image Example #1
Tealc-Stargate-Christopher-Judge-e-Grenade Launcher.jpg

Or the Terminator firing a shotgun (He would be Robotic Strength)
Image Example #2
terminator_one_hand_shotgun.jpg
terminator_one_hand_shotgun.jpg (34.81 KiB) Viewed 1209 times


Edit: Grip is also a factor in two-handed features. For Firearms, it would require a pistol grip or something akin to that. Larger weapons such as mounted machine guns or rocket launchers do not have such grips and would be omitted entirely. But Shotguns, hand-held machine guns and rifles can all have pistol grips.

The idea of a pistol grip is that one hand is all that is needed to hold and stabilize that portion of the weapon and be wielded more comfortably than standard stock grips.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Dark Lord » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:40 pm

This discussion appears to have fallen into limbo. Let's see if we can't get it back on track.

The original proposal covered melee weapons only, so I am disregarding all discussion of modern weapons. Make a separate proposal or revise this one if you like.

I don't disagree with the rationale presented from a realism/plausibility perspective. I do have two concerns from a game balance perspective that I want addressed in the formal proposal before turning this over to the community for a vote.

First: How will this interface with paired weapons? Will it allow a supernaturally strong character to wield two two-handed weapons, without penalty or other tradeoff? Will paired weapons not be usable with two-handed weapons, given that the training is by definition in one-handed weapons only?

Second: Implementing this proposal as presented gives strong, melee-oriented characters the opportunity to substantially increase their damage output with essentially no downside. I disagree with that on a philosophical level (everything comes with a price), and on a "not wanting every min-maxer on the site to start wielding ridiculously big weapons all the time without a second thought" level. WPs train one in how a weapon is supposed to be used- by definition, that does not include using a two-handed weapon with one hand, and therefore I don't think it's appropriate to have the WP obviate all penalties. What I would like to propose instead is a modest strike penalty. These would be determined by individual GMs on a case-by-case basis, proportionate to the difference in damage between the two-handed weapon of choice and its closest one-handed equivalent. Say, -1 or -2 per die difference.

For example: The ribber vibro-sword does 3d6 MD, while the giant sword does 5d6 MD. Assuming the wielder is strong enough to use either, that would be either a -2 or -4 to strike, with the WP. Not enough to nerf the ability, but enough to give a PC pause if they really, really need to hit what it is they're attacking.

I'll also echo Lloyd's hard veto of any new skills. That system is pretty bloated as-is.

Revise or continue discussing as appropriate and we'll move forward.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Underguard » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:22 pm

Regarding modern weapons: That honestly wasn't the point of this, and I'd rather write a new proposal than include it into this one.

Purpose of this proposal was not to allow the autonomous use of two great weapons like the Buster Sword from Final Fantasy without penalty. The purpose to address the weapons such as the Altess Eviscerator or other similarly sized melee weapons that, for whatever reason, have that restriction on them based on some weight/size classification.

The idea was that, unless an item has a mechanical feature that specifically requires the use of two hands, for example, the gravity wave maul would not qualify as it is specifically designed to be a two-handed weapon to use it's thunder wave abilities; it can be wielded with one hand via without penalty.

I would argue, regarding paired weapons, that no. The use of such a weapon means they no longer operate under the Paired Weapons guideline, and if they do, they suffer a penalty; but only due to their size, not their weight. We're still talking toothpicks to SN and Robotic Strength creatures. Bare in mind, this entire conversation is based on weight and size of the weapon. The Altess Eviscerator is a prime example that anyone can view on the patron thread that fits the example I am listing; it is a sword. Not a great sword, not a bastard sword (I don't think it should even be counted as a two-handed weapon under normal circumstances as someone who actively trains in martial arts and exotic weapons, but that's digressing.)

This was not designed to allow the wielding of two extremely large or overt weapons without penalties. But a single weapon of varying weight and size, with the proper grip (handle) to be wielded in one hand. Technically, the Gravity Maul patron item would be weilded with one hand, but not with it's effects that require activation.

Supernatural Strength is exactly that, Supernatural. It isn't human. It is beyond what we comprehend in normal terms; the idea of there being a weight classification or, even a size one, is what this is addressing.

I train with a 15lbs Kwan Dao; that takes two hands for me to wield via weight at the end of the staff (the blade) and it's size. It would, in theory, NOT take two hands for a SN creature to wield because that 15lb bladed staff would literally be a toothpick to them. This is the difference. And I can do several of the moves for this weapon with one hand before my arm gets tuckered out; the same would not be applicable to Supernatural Strength and Endurance (or Robotic).




On a side note; in the armory melee section, both the Big Bore Hammer and Bangstick Hammer weight more than the Altess but do not have any reference of a required two-handed modifier

In fact, a closer search of the armory melee weapons makes zero reference to two handed weapons anywhere. So my direct example also happens to be the only example on the site as listed.
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Re: Proposal: Two-Handed Weapon Rule

Postby Dark Lord » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:54 pm

So I think all your points are great. This was meant to be a very specific, very targeted proposal. That just needs to be clear, in the actual proposal that we'll have people vote on.
Ancient weapons only + no paired weapons are unintended consequences- exactly why we review proposals in the first place (because you can bet money I'm not the only one thinking along those lines after reading this). Post a final draft of your proposal, in exact language you wish to be used for modifying the house rules, and I'll add a link to that post along with the poll options.

(I'm also updating my readme file as I go, so thanks for being a bit of a guinea pig for the new process)
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