Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

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Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Underguard » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:00 pm

The Situation: A Level 5 OCC w/ H2H Commando[L4] grows to level 6 and has the opportunity IC to learn Assassin. Said player chooses to learn Assassin for level 5, replacing Commando as his active H2H skill.

This example is due to the fact both skills are easily accessible in the EU Main Guide pg 349

The Effects: All bonuses and abilities offered by Commando are wiped. Start fresh at level 1 Assassin as a level 5 OCC [unless some metacurrency(EP) exists to level it up]

The Question: Why does a PC lose all of its former H2H abilities and bonuses when beginning a new system of martial arts and wipe the old one completely away? That doesn't even happen for Dual-Classing Skills. They just freeze (foreshadow to my solution)

Current Answer: Game rules, won't change regardless of logic ;; unwillingness to modify due to new learning curve ;; too much work.


Proposed Solution: Upon the selection of the new H2H skill, the former H2H skill essentially freezes; no new techniques or bonuses from the former H2H skill however all existing bonuses and techniques remain available to the PC. The new H2H bonuses and techniques are cumulatively added to the former bonuses and techniques and the new H2H skill levels normally with the following exception. The first level of the new H2H skill would not add any bonuses or APMs; though you will still learn the techniques of the new skills first level and this includes conditioning from the new H2H in the form of attribute or SDC changes. Every following level in the new skill levels as normally.
Restriction: Must be done post-chargen.
Extremes: Yes, this rule technically would allow someone to reclass every level which, by removing the Level 1 bonuses, we attempt to deter to avoid someone broken at low level.
A New Learning Curve?!: By removing the level 1 features and ensuring it is post chargen, this rule would only be applicable to people who have been on the site for a level or two and understand the concept of House Rules and how to apply them (with the random exception, of course) or at least are able to learn.
Why? Because you do not lose skills you gained when you pick a new class, when you start training in a new field or new college degree. You KEEP all of your old stuff, this is especially true in Martial Arts when you are constantly able to apply it.

Each example is different below.

Example 1: Commando and Assassin, Lvl 6
Example 1:
Joe Snuffy is a OCC with Commando [L4] and Assassin [L2]. Joe Snuffy's bonuses would look like this.

H2H Bonuses Commando
Expert combat training enables the character to use any basic/common attacks, including Punch, Elbow, Kick, Knee, Disarm, Dodge, Entangle, Body BlocklTackle, Roll with Impact, Power Punch, Power Kick, and Pull Punch and even some martial arts moves (as noted below) - but unless noted, the character does not have special moves or martial art attacks such as Automatic Dodge, Back Flip, Holds, Karate Punches, Leap Kick or other moves.
Level 1: Starts with four attacks/actions per melee round, W.P. Paired Weapons, body flip/throw, body block/tackle and +2 to save vs Horror Factor.
Level 2: + 1 on initiative, + 1 to strike, +2 to parry and dodge, +3 to roll with punch/fall/impact, and +3 to pull punch. Backward sweep kick, used only against opponents coming up behind the character.
Does no damage; it is purely a knockdown attack (same penalties as body flip) but cannot be parried (an opponent can try to dodge it but is -2 to do so).

Level 3: + 1 on initiative, + 1 to disarm, and Karate punch/strike (does 2D4 damage).
Level 4: + 1 additional attack/action per melee and Karate kick (does 2D6). The karate-style kick tarts with bringing the knee, folded, up to chest level, then the foot is completely extended.

Assassin combat training enables the character to use any basic/common attacks, including Punch, Elbow, Kick, Knee, Disarm, Dodge, Entangle, Body BlocklTackle, Body Flip/Throw, Roll with Impact, Power Punch, Power Kick, and Pull Punch and even many martial art moves (as noted below) - but unless noted below, the character does not have special martial art moves.
Level 1: Starts with three attacks/actions per melee round. +2 to strike. W.P. Paired Weapons. New H2H skill begins with the basics, which have already been learned so nothing is added, the bonuses do not stack on the first level.
Level 2: + 1 on initiative and +2 additional attacks/actions per melee round. These bonuses begin stacking
PC gains new level in AssassinLevel 3: Karate Punch (2D4 damage), +3 to pull punch, and +2 to roll with impact/punch/fall. Add and level as normal

Reasoning: Commando and Assassin are obviously very different skills. That in mind, all martial arts start with the basics. In this specific case, there are no new techniques from Assassin, so the first level of Assassin for a L4 Commando would be boring and revisiting a lot of the basics. L2 in assassin is when the Assassin techniques begin to take shape, this is shown by the increase in initiative and APM. You begin to learn to move like an assassin; but you don't forget how to move like a commando, you just are no longer actively learning new commando techniques in favor of assassin techniques and training.

In-Game Manifestation: PC is Commando and is invited to the HH Academy and is trained by an Assassin H2H, for example. New system, all of the commandos efforts would need to be put into the assassin training and not any further commando training. The PC retains the former bonuses and skills because they can always go back and practice old skills and they can especially apply new bonuses to old skills.
Why? As a commando, the pc can do a body flip as a commando. With the new H2H skill added, they know how to body flip like a commando assassin.

It's the idea of looking at different points of contact. As a Commando, I know X point of contact will flip Person. As an Assassin with former Commando Training, I know X point of contact will flip a person, and that Y point of contact will be more effective than point X to flip a person using new Assassin knowledge and former commando training. This manifests as the bonuses being stacked.



Example Two: Martial Arts to Aikido
Same situation as above, different skills. Martial Arts L4 and Aikido L2

Note: Martial arts combat training enables the character to use any basic/common attacks, including Punch, Elbow, Kick, Knee, Disarm, Dodge, Entangle, Body BlocklTackle, Body FliplThrow, Roll with Impact, Power Punch, Power Kick, and Pull Punch as well as the martial arts moves noted below.
L1: Starts with four attacks/actions per melee; +3 to pull punch and +3 to roll with impact/punch/fall, and body flip/throw; does I D6 damage, victim loses initiative and one attack.
L2: +3 to parry and dodge; +2 to strike, and may perform Karate and any hand strike/punch.
L3: + 1 on initiative, and may perform a Karate-style kick (does 2D6 damage) and any foot strike except Leap Kick.
L4: + I additional attack/action per melee round.

Aikido: The following techniques are known at first level: Bodyblock/tackle, body flip/throw, break fall, disarm, holds, roll with punch/fall/impact, pull punch, kick attack (2D4 damage), and the usual, strike, parry and dodge. (The PC can use Break Falls now)
Bonuses: +2D6 S.D.C., +ID4 to M.E., +1 to P.P., and +1 to P.E. == This bonuses are from conditioning and training in the new system and are applied.
Level
L1: Two attacks per melee round; +2 to roll with punch/fall/impact, +2 to body flip/throw, and +2 to pull punch. +3 to break fall ;; Level 1 bonuses not applied to existing techniques. New Techniques bonuses are added.
L2: +1 on initiative, +2 to parry and dodge Begin applying bonuses per level

Reasoning: Again, Martial Arts (which as a base name is dumb but I'll ignore that) and Aikido are very different skills. Martial Arts garners X skills such as body flip and body block. Aikido also has said skills, but also has Break Fall, which Martial Arts did not. That is now a feature the PC can use. Aikido requires specific conditioning drills to be able to preform, and this is shown in the form of the attribute and SDC increase. This would still be applied because Martial Arts and Aikido have different conditioning drills, and Aikido's are specifically designed to train your body for the stress of the martial arts system you are learning. That said, the basics [L1] of striking, dodging, parrying, attacking per round, etc wouldn't be added regardless of what is actually offered in the skill. Every following level would because you are moving away from the basics of Aikido and into the techniques and understanding application. This is then shown by the next level up which stacks onto the former, frozen skill.


If you have ever seen a martial arts class or academy, everywhere teaches the basics first. Such as giving a PC its actions per rounds and initial bonuses. All martial arts also have sets of conditioning drills which are designed to train your body for the hardships it will endure as you push it to its limits while fighting. This is shown in Aikido which grants an SDC and attribute bump; this still gets applied. It is the level one basics that do not get applied. Every following level is added as normal, as with in real life, when you move on from the basics you get to the technique and application.

Example 3: Real life No prior training versus prior training
This is an example on justifying why bonuses stack and traits are retained.

I am a 1st Degree Black Belt Instructor in Chinese Martial Arts who also has training in Brazillian Jujitsu (military combatives), Krav Maga and Muay Thai. [We'll call that the equivalent to a L3 Martial Arts Skill for this example]

My brother has zero martial arts training beyond tricks and tips I show him (which doesn't count for this example).

Both of us walk into an Aikido Dojo to begin learning Aikido. We each have zero training in Aikido and we start at the lowest rank in the dojo.

I have former training, so the lowest rank doesn't do hardly anything for me beyond showing me a new way to break my fall, as the rest of it was basics on attacking and such. Great. I still have to rank up to learn new things. My brother however learns a lot on level 1.

Level two, we move away from the basics and begin applying aikido techniques to the basics. We learn a new way to read our opponents using Aikido (initiative bonus) and how to apply the aikido techniques to our existing attacks.

For example, Chinese Martial Arts is a standing combat with a few take downs and whatnot, but still standing that focuses on breaks and multiple opponents and take downs. Aikido is a standing to ground system which focuses using your opponents momentum against themselves, resulting in flips, take downs, breaks and ground work. I already have Brazilian Jujitsu training which is straight groundwork for the applicant with minor training on standing to ground take-downs to get there, but largely just ground work.

So, now, I can apply this entire set (in theory) to go from standing, to mid-low knee level to ground and maintain control or have applicable techniques the entire time. This means during my movement, all of my training cumulatively allows me to retain control the entire time. (Thus, culm. bonuses.)

My brother, only has the couple levels in Aikido. He can start using momentum against his opponents and learn to move and fight using aikido stances and techniques, but doesn't have the applied knowledge I do.

Because I stopped training in Chinese Martial Arts, that skill is frozen. I still actively go back and look at what I know to make sure it is still there, but I don't learn new skills nor earn new ranks. Instead, I begin training Aikido and because I want to learn as much as possible there, focus my training there. Thus making it my active H2H skill, but I Am Still A Black Belt In Chinese Martial Arts. That doesn't go away.

This shows why the bonuses need to stack. That is how the combination of multiple systems shows. Everything compliments the next system. Nothing is ever better than another thing, everything is just another tool in the martial toolbox.


As willing, this is also assuming the dice gods are willing. A nat1 roll from a level 20 H2H commando can result in a Lvl2 doing a takedown on said commando, so oddities exist.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Dime Store Magic » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:46 pm

I would offer a 3rd solution, which is part of the dual classing procedure for OCC related abilities. Instead of the bonuses being additive, the character receives the higher of two bonuses so:

HTH style 1 has a +2 to strike, and a +3 to dodge

HTH style 2 has a +3 to strike and a +1 to dodge.

The end result is that the character has a +3 to strike and a +3 to dodge.

If the new HTH style applies bonuses at future levels, they do not apply until they exceed the old style, so using the same example.

In a few levels, HTH style 2 gets an additional +1 to dodge (+2 total), the character already has a +3 to dodge so no change.

In a few more levels, HTH style 2 gets an additional +2 to dodge (+4 total), the character now has a +4 to dodge.

This way, the incentive to just buy multiple HTH styles with EP is curbed. The character role-play-wise, learns the new style for the moves, not the bonuses.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Underguard » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:50 pm

Dime Store Magic wrote:I would offer a 3rd solution, which is part of the dual classing procedure for OCC related abilities. Instead of the bonuses being additive, the character receives the higher of two bonuses so:

HTH style 1 has a +2 to strike, and a +3 to dodge

HTH style 2 has a +3 to strike and a +1 to dodge.

The end result is that the character has a +3 to strike and a +3 to dodge.

If the new HTH style applies bonuses at future levels, they do not apply until they exceed the old style, so using the same example.

In a few levels, HTH style 2 gets an additional +1 to dodge (+2 total), the character already has a +3 to dodge so no change.

In a few more levels, HTH style 2 gets an additional +2 to dodge (+4 total), the character now has a +4 to dodge.

This way, the incentive to just buy multiple HTH styles with EP is curbed. The character role-play-wise, learns the new style for the moves, not the bonuses.


I am honestly okay with this as a alternative as well. It was the complete wipe and lack of acknowledgement to the former skill that I am addressing.
I think I still prefer my method, but have absolutely zero issues with the alternative posted by DSM.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Augur » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:02 am

I'm okay with the addition of new abilities via adopting a new HTH skill, I'm not okay with stacking bonuses; one set of bonuses from whichever is the active/not frozen HTH only.
If you're still interested in pursuing this, post the proposed rule change with edits to reflect this. (No need for rationale, etc, just post the rule as it would read in the house rules.)
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Underguard » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:42 pm

Changing Hand-to-Hand Skills

A character upon leveling may elect to select a new Hand to Hand Skill for their Skill Choice. This H2H choice will replace the existing H2H as the active skill. Upon the selection of the new H2H skill, all generic bonuses gained from the former H2H skill are lost (Initiative, Parry, Dodge, Strike, Roll w/, Pull Punch, Disarm), though APM & special techniques are not lost. There is no limit to how many times a player may choose a new H2H skill, however no generic bonuses will stack resulting in low bonuses unless committed between just a couple H2H skills. (Recommended is no more than two H2H skills, three is stretching it. No more than three should be allowed on the site.)

    Actions per round are not lost; however, no further actions are added until the current H2H skill places a PC above their current maximum.

    Special techniques such as Leg Sweeps, Body Blocks, Karate Strikes, Break Fall, are not lost and retain their unique bonuses (if applicable).

    This is to be treated similarly to Dual-OCCs. The former H2H skill listed as frozen next to the active H2H skills name.

Example (Skill):
    Formerly H2H Aikido has the Breakfall skill at +2.

    H2H Martial Arts does not have the Breakfall skill.

    Result: All generic bonuses lost, but the PC still knows Breakfall +2 (Frozen)
    This includes special attacks, body blocks, leg sweeps and more. Any technique learned is still known.

Example (APM):
    Former H2H Martial Arts Lvl 4 (5 APM)

    New H2H Assassin Lvl 1 (3 APM)

    Result: Player still has 5 APM until H2H Assassin takes them above 5 APM. The new H2H skill's APM Do Not Stack with the former H2H.

Example (Character Sheet Combat Data)
    HTH Type: Martial Arts (Level 1) | (Aikido: Frozen @ Level 1)
    Number of Attacks: 4
    Initiative Bonus: +1
    Strike Bonus: +2
    Parry Bonus: +3
    Dodge Bonus: +3
    HTH Damage Bonus:
    Bonus to Roll w/Punch: +3
    Bonus to Pull a Punch: +3
    Bonus to Disarm:
    Other: Aikido Technique: Breakfall +2 (Frozen)

    Using the Martial Arts bonuses, but keeping the unique Aikido technique.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Augur » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Stacking additional APM? No way, Jose. Especially given the "unlimited" number of H2H skills one can learn? That's crazy broken.

Replace old H2H skill's APM with new--that's fine.
Learn new techniques/moves--that's fine.

Everything else is ripe for abuse.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Underguard » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:59 pm

Stacking additional APM? No way, Jose. Especially given the "unlimited" number of H2H skills one can learn? That's crazy broken.


I specifically said no stacking.
The new H2H skill's APM Do Not Stack with the former H2H.


All I said was that the new skill won't reset your H2H APM, cause a level 5 going back to 3 APMs makes no sense whatsoever and I will fight this to the death.

I nuked the generic bonuses. No bonuses stack. The APMs specifically do not stack. The APM's remain static until the new H2H skill superceeds it in skills. IE. Until the H2H Skill gives it the next attack in the normal progression. I also specifically stated no more than 3 should be allowed on the site, and would further state that it should probably receive a similar restriction to Dual Classing (in that it is restricted to one choice, then another, then back to the first H2H at most). I stated that as well.

I see no place where this is broken. Elaborate.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Augur » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:09 pm

Upon the selection of the new H2H skill, all generic bonuses gained from the former H2H skill are lost (Initiative, Parry, Dodge, Strike, Roll w/, Pull Punch, Disarm), though APM & special techniques are not lost.


I interpreted the above to contradict the "APM do not stack." Maybe just clean up phrasing?

And this seems complicated:
The APM's remain static until the new H2H skill superceeds it in skills. IE. Until the H2H Skill gives it the next attack in the normal progression.
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Re: Proposal: Changing H2H Skills In-Game

Postby Underguard » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:46 am

Final Draft
Please note the specific changes in the wording for the Final Draft

Changing Hand-to-Hand Skills

A character upon leveling may elect to select a new Hand to Hand Skill for their Skill Choice. This H2H choice will replace the existing H2H as the active skill. Upon the selection of the new H2H skill, all generic bonuses gained from the former H2H skill are lost and do not stack with the new H2H skill (Initiative, Parry, Dodge, Strike, Roll w/, Pull Punch, Disarm), special techniques (and those with unique bonuses) are not lost. APM from the former skill are retained until the new H2H skill adds the next APM in standard progression of the H2H tree; they are not stacked. This is to be treated as dual-classing; a PC may select their first H2H skill, then move to another H2H skill once; they may choose to return to the original H2H skill.

    Actions per round are not lost; however, no further actions are added until the current H2H skill adds the next APM in the normal progression chain.

    Special techniques such as Leg Sweeps, Body Blocks, Karate Strikes, Break Fall, are not lost and retain their unique bonuses (if applicable).

    This is to be treated similarly to Dual-OCCs. The former H2H skill listed as frozen next to the active H2H skills name.

    Note: EP may be used to gain a new H2H skill, in which case the former one freezes. EP may only be used to improve the currently active H2H skill

    If a player returns to their former H2H Skill, they return to that H2H's progression and bonus tree and it picks up at the level it left off.

Example (Skill):
    Formerly H2H Aikido has the Breakfall skill at +2.

    H2H Martial Arts does not have the Breakfall skill.

    Result: All generic bonuses lost, but the PC still knows Breakfall +2 (Frozen)
    This includes special attacks, body blocks, leg sweeps and more. Any technique learned is still known.

Example (APM):
    Former H2H Martial Arts Lvl 4 (5 APM)

    New H2H Assassin Lvl 1 (3 APM)

    Result: Player still has 5 APM until H2H Assassin takes them above 5 APM. The new H2H skill's APM Do Not Stack with the former H2H.

Example (Character Sheet Combat Data)
    HTH Type: Martial Arts (Level 1) | (Aikido: Frozen @ Level 1)
    Number of Attacks: 4
    Initiative Bonus: +1
    Strike Bonus: +2
    Parry Bonus: +3
    Dodge Bonus: +3
    HTH Damage Bonus:
    Bonus to Roll w/Punch: +3
    Bonus to Pull a Punch: +3
    Bonus to Disarm:
    Other: Aikido Technique: Breakfall +2 (Frozen)

    Using the Martial Arts bonuses, but keeping the unique Aikido technique.
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