Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

All admin-related content and proposals are managed here. Proposals must include "Proposal:" in the subject line of the new thread to even be considered.
Dark Lord handles posted proposals.

Moderator: Augur

Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Dark Lord » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:52 am

The problem: One of the primary purposes of the EP system is to encourage people to GM. Insufficient rewards for GMing (relative to playing) work against this goal, but at the same time compensation that is too lavish runs the risk of producing a situation analogous to long-term socioeconomic inequality- where PCs played by GMs are substantially better than those that aren't due to long-term, cumulative investment in the form of EP.

For awhile now, I've been a little concerned that we haven't hit the right balance, and particularly with all the new dimensions Augur wants to open up I think it might be worth revisiting this issue to see if we can entice some more fresh blood into the GMing pool. I thought long and hard about whether to make this a proposal, or even to start this discussion at all, as there's a clear conflict of interest with myself and every other GM. But ultimately I decided it was worth seeing what people think.

What I would propose, if this notion has broader support, is simply that we treat GM accounts like we treat PC accounts for the purposes of calculating EP rewards (outside of the current vote system). Namely that a) GMs be included with their group when said group earns an EP reward for a high post rate, and b) the GM post rate that is already calculated is rewarded the same as PC posts per week (e.g., 1 EP reward for a GM post rate > 1). I don't think it can be argued that a high GM PPW isn't at least as valuable to the game as a high PC PPW, nor that a GM has nothing to do with it when a group posts frequently enough to earn a reward for everybody. But at the same time, these rewards are modest enough in practice that I think it won't aggravate my concern stated above with over-paying GMs. It would also have the nice side benefit of providing GMs with a small incentive to push their groups to post faster.
Why kill a PC when you can torture their player?
ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Dark Lord
Dimension Master
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:36 am
Location: DIMENSION MASTER: PHASE WORLD

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Augur » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:39 am

Bullet point proposed changes:

  • Polling for GM ratings is eliminated.
  • GMs get included in group post rate EP calculation & rewards.
  • Group post rate rewards are established as constant/inherently part of the system.

I have that correct?
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
To help support this site w/o a subscription, use paypal.me/LloydRitchey
Medals
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

Palladium Books Internet Policy
User avatar
Augur
Admin
 
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:19 pm
Location: lloyd.ritchey at gmail

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Dark Lord » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:40 am

As I envisioned it, polling would be retained. Post rate rewards would be unchanged- at DM discretion, only for the top 3 groups, etc. The other bullet point is to treat GM accounts like PCs for purposes of PPW rewards.
Why kill a PC when you can torture their player?
ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Dark Lord
Dimension Master
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:36 am
Location: DIMENSION MASTER: PHASE WORLD

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Augur » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:48 am

Bullet point proposed changes:

  • GMs get included in group post rate EP calculation & rewards. This is in addition to quad polling rewards.
  • Include GM accounts in calculation of post rate EP rewards.
  • Group post rate rewards are established as constant/inherently part of the system.

If I have that correct, that seems like a proposal to double dip.
Also, this would necessitate an evaluation system akin to what players have: GM must meet these criteria for the post to qualify.
Then there's the conflict of interest in that the GM is judging his own posts as to what qualifies.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
To help support this site w/o a subscription, use paypal.me/LloydRitchey
Medals
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

Palladium Books Internet Policy
User avatar
Augur
Admin
 
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:19 pm
Location: lloyd.ritchey at gmail

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Dodsrike » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:50 am

I like the idea (naturally).

I would say that that means that each DM would need to establish criteria for GM posts to "qualify" and that AGM's would need to qualify GM posts as well. Not sure that is fair to the AGMs. The good ones already do a fair amount of work.
Image
User avatar
Dodsrike
Game Master
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Dark Lord » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:53 am

1) EP rewards for PCs already double-dip- PCs get rewarded for a high post rate, then they get rewarded again for being in a group with a high post rate. This proposal simply includes GMs in that process.
2) I agree with your other point- we would need to set an easy-to-measure, site-wide metric for what constitutes an eligible GM post. Off the top of my head, something like "Gives at least half the PCs something to react to."
Why kill a PC when you can torture their player?
ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Dark Lord
Dimension Master
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:36 am
Location: DIMENSION MASTER: PHASE WORLD

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Grave Digger » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:03 am

Augur wrote:Also, this would necessitate an evaluation system akin to what players have: GM must meet these criteria for the post to qualify. Then there's the conflict of interest in that the GM is judging his own posts as to what qualifies

Dark Lord wrote:2) I agree with your other point- we would need to set an easy-to-measure, site-wide metric for what constitutes an eligible GM post. Off the top of my head, something like "Gives at least half the PCs something to react to."

I'd argue that qualifying GM posts is a self-fulfilling criteria. If a GM is not providing enough material for an adequate GM post, this will likely reflect in the end of quad ratings. If a group of PC's say that a GM's posts are threadbare and not conductive to a good game, someone can go back and check to see if the GM is really earning his post-rate with good posts. And also, if that's happening, I would suspect that there are problems with the GM beyond simply weak writing. Conversely, if everyone is happy, that would prolly mean that a GM's posts meet the bare minimum standards.

Alternatively, this is something the AGM or whoever tabulates XP can also check. However, this might be a problem for an GM that counts his on XP (does anyone do that?)? And it might be annoying to edit a XP spreadsheet to now also grade GM posts. Personally, I think an honor system should work. A GM post should always meet the bare minimum standards as is, and no reason to assume they won't if we add an EP bonus.
User avatar
Grave Digger
Assistant Game Master
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:04 pm
Location: AGM: Templar

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Dark Lord » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:05 am

For the most part I agree, but occasionally a GM will do a mini-update with a couple lines of dialogue or something like that. Those posts should be treated the same way they would be from a PC (i.e., not counted). However, this may be easier to do if we specify what doesn't count towards GM PPW, as opposed to what does.
Why kill a PC when you can torture their player?
ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Dark Lord
Dimension Master
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:36 am
Location: DIMENSION MASTER: PHASE WORLD

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Augur » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:19 am

Players are rewarded EP for:
    Individual post rate
    Group post rate (if top tier)

GMs are currenty rewarded EP for:
    Polling rating

Under this proposal GMs would be rewarded EP for:
    Polling rating
    Individual post rate
    Group post rate (if top tier)

Grave Digger wrote:I'd argue that qualifying GM posts is a self-fulfilling criteria. If a GM is not providing enough material for an adequate GM post, this will likely reflect in the end of quad ratings.

If the quad ratings already fulfill such, then it seems to be sufficient to the task of judging and rewarding the GM as well.

Just FTR:
Duties:
Maintain a GM post rate at a minimum of one adventure post per week.
Have the IM contact info of each player in their group.
Notify all players in the group via IM or PM of new GM posts, and other important updates.
Maintain your adventure notes in the GM's Cabal. (Gist: If a random GM can't pick up and run the adventure from your notes, the notes are unsatisfactory.)
Be available for IM chat at least one day a week.
Coordinate with the AGM regarding expected adventure dates & time-frames.
Consult with AGM regarding XP awards.
Directly notify AGM via PM of any expected absences in addition to the Account Status Tracker.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
To help support this site w/o a subscription, use paypal.me/LloydRitchey
Medals
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

Palladium Books Internet Policy
User avatar
Augur
Admin
 
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:19 pm
Location: lloyd.ritchey at gmail

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Tiree » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:52 am

I think I am utterly confused as to if there is a problem here.

I think the question really boils down to this: Should GM's get the Group Reward on top 3 post rates. I would say yes, both GM and AGM. They work as a team and should get rewarded just like the PC's.

Do we want to put them in line with the players on a 1.0+ post rate? No... Absolutely No! The GM Post Rate is calculated to show how well the PC's are doing to the GM, if the GM is less than ideal. How that formula works is: Average if PC's Number of Posts divided by GM Post Rate. GM Post rate is calculated by the number of GM Posts if greater to 14, then it caps at 14. If it's less than 14 us the GM's number of posts.

If you are wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater, then do the following. Have a poll with 2 simple options. Each player casts a vote Yes or No. Every yes gives the GM a simple EP, ever No doesn't.

It gives the GM up to 8 EP for every player in the group. 4 if they are at the minimum. And if you add in the player reward for top groups, then they shine.
User avatar
Tiree
Admin
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:44 am
Location: IT SUPPORT

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Dark Lord » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:30 pm

Tiree:

1) I'm going to veto any system that penalizes GMs for players failing to vote, for having less than a full complement of PCs, or for any other factors outside of a GM's direct control.
2) I'm not sure what benefit this approach offers over using an already calculated metric. If PPW>1.0 is worth rewarding for a PC, why isn't it worth rewarding for a GM?
3) It's not clear if this proposed poll is intended to replace or supplement the existing evaluations, but either way I think it's a bad idea. In the former case it detracts from a GM's EP award relative to the current scheme (exacerbating the problem I noted in my OP), and in the latter rewards them excessively (IMO). In both cases it also reduces player's opportunity to provide feedback.

Other items that came up during discussion in chat:

- DM discretion for awarding group post rates needs to be replaced with something less arbitrary. Q12020 had an average group post rate ~2% higher than Q22020. That's not a huge difference, but if the latter is going to be rewarded then so should the former.
- AGMs don't generally contribute as directly, as often to group post rates as GMs, and so probably shouldn't be eligible for full group post rate rewards. However, a +1 EP bonus to AGMs running a group that wins a post rate award (top 3) was deemed appropriate by the discussants present.
Why kill a PC when you can torture their player?
ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Dark Lord
Dimension Master
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:36 am
Location: DIMENSION MASTER: PHASE WORLD

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Tiree » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:10 pm

DL -

That is why I think your discussion is quite confusing to me.

Do I think the system is broken: No
Am I frustrated that we keep on having discussions such as this: Yes
Can I gripe about other changes we have implemented: Sure

To your point #3 - yes, if your going to make big changes. Let's look at it all the way to the core of the system.

Now if your frustrated with GM's not getting the +1 to +3 bonus for top post rate of a group. I hear you, but it is at the discretion of the Augur to implement: yay or nay. He's the ultimate arbiter on EP with the site, and it's all in his bailiwick.

Should the GM get a bonus for the fact that the players are chatty people? I don't know, I don't think so. But if we are calling it a group rate, then sure. If you want to have a new rate just for GM's - I think that would be great as well. We know how many posts GM's make, we can make some qualitative adjustments here, and provide data upon that. If we do such a thing, we can put in a Top 3 GM's and give them the bonus of +1 to +3.

If your frustrated with the extra EP being doled out to groups, we can separate the Rifts Dimension from the rest of EU. And if you feel the group deserves extra EP, utilize the Dimensional EP available to the Dimension Masters ever quad. I personally like this a bit more.
User avatar
Tiree
Admin
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:44 am
Location: IT SUPPORT

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Kar Fallax » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:49 am

Augur wrote:Bullet point proposed changes:

  • GMs get included in group post rate EP calculation & rewards. This is in addition to quad polling rewards.
  • Include GM accounts in calculation of post rate EP rewards.
  • Group post rate rewards are established as constant/inherently part of the system.


1 - GM's and AGM's being rewarded with the players for the top three post rates is not a bad idea. This doesn't have to be based on the GM's posts at all. It can be a simple inclusion of the award to all who are apart of the "team". A good GM give the players the material to spur great post rates.

2- We already calculate the GM post rates. I am confused by this one

3 - This is the one we should be talking about most. This need to be consistent. It went away and for the previous two quads no group awards were given. It was decided it was over. Now all of a sudden its back. Arbitrarily. This should not be based on a whim. This is maddening. What was the "Reason" for this quad being deserving but last quad or the quad before not? This quad actually had a lower average site post rate. I don't get it. I do not that when rules change to suit who makes them the game becomes BS.

This discussion needs to be broken into two separate discussions. 1, should aGM's be include in thr group rate award. 2, Should the group rate awards be permanent. Maybe two separate polls.

I also think, if we are going to award EP for the top three for this quad then the top three for at least last quad should retroactively awarded as well. It is only fair considering that last quad had a higher site average.
User avatar
Kar Fallax
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 7:02 am

Re: Discussion: EP Parity for Players and GMs

Postby Augur » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:33 am

"Should the group rate awards be permanent?"

There's a legitimate gripe about the subjectivity of whether or not the group rewards are rewarded and when/if they're implemented, and this is a separate issue.

My subjective basis for this has been the estimation of how all the groups are posting.
This quad past everyone did amazing. I don't know what the magic was, but everyone had it. Post rates were really good in virtually every group.
Previous quads...especially recent one, not so much.

So I'd be keen on making the basis for this objective rather than subjective, but what I don't want to do is reward folks for doing the minimum.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
To help support this site w/o a subscription, use paypal.me/LloydRitchey
Medals
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

Palladium Books Internet Policy
User avatar
Augur
Admin
 
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:19 pm
Location: lloyd.ritchey at gmail


Return to Admin Corner Office

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dark Lord, Underguard and 2 guests