Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

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Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Dark Lord » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:14 am

One of my players is understandably less-than-thrilled with the recent changes to the gravity manipulation power; while I agree with the need for modifications proposed I (and others) would argue that the reduction in effect for various levels of PS is too much of an over-correction. I'm assuming that's a closed discussion and/or one that should be continued in the original thread. But I am posting an excerpt from our discussion of gravity manipulation here:

Solaris wrote:Well, I understand the aspect of game balance. Although, not only is a strike roll being added (understandably) but also the effects against stronger opponents are being incredibly reduced.
I don't see it as anywhere close to an "auto-win", even using the power as written. There are opponents who can teleport, go intangible, use mind control, or even stay out of the 200' range. And that's just off the top of my head.
Compared to something like Carpet of Adhesion, which virtually every spellcaster on the site has, and can be cast multiple times AND still has an effect for a while even if you save, I don't see Gravity Manipulation as being nearly as bad/broken/needs to be nerfed.


I can't fault this logic one bit. And, I mean, is there anyone on this site who plays and/or GMs a spell-caster that doesn't think carpet of adhesion is broken as hell as written? If we're going to introduce modifications to make powers like gravity manipulation fallible (and I think we should), we should be even-handed about doing the same to non-super abilities as well. We do have some rules for dodging them in place- why not go a step further and just make it a strike roll to make it consistent with other abilities?

I don't think a comprehensive review of all spells and psionics is feasible or necessary, though we could certainly make that a long-term project if we so choose.
Therefore, I would like to introduce two proposals.

Proposal #1: Every spell effect that does not currently require a strike roll or a saving throw now requires a roll to strike to hit a particular target. This includes, off the top of my head, carpet of adhesion and call lightning. PP bonuses, and WP targeting would apply, and we can set a poll for the community to decide whether there should be an inherent strike bonus of +0/+3/+6 (based on other 'point and shoot' type powers).

Proposal #2: I personally think that the only potentially problematic psionic power is Bio-Manipulation: Paralysis. Yes, it requires a saving throw- but one failed save = a character who is immobilized for an entire battle and then some. Most good GMs would (I think) be loath to use this on players because there's no fun in being completely immobile for an entire battle; players have no such compunction about short-circuiting enemies that don't have a mind block. Therefore, I would like to propose two modifications- first, we change the duration of the entire power. I would offer up a poll with the following options for the community to choose: 4d4 minutes (cannon), 4d4 melees, and 2d4 melees. Second, for the paralytic ability, we introduce a house rule that allows the psychic to target one or more of five body parts: Head, each arm, and each leg. The normal duration of bio-manipulation is divided by the number of body parts selected- so it remains possible to completely paralyze an opponent, but the duration becomes (for example) 4d4/5 melees- on average about two melees. I think that's still enough to be an effective offensive tool in any psychic's arsenal, without completely taking out any opponent who fails their save. Psychics who opt to only paralyze part of an opponent's body can retain a longer duration. Appropriate penalties can be reasonably extrapolated from the Paralysis: Lesser spell (BoM P. 98), with the addendum that paralyzing the head simply makes communication and spell-casting impossible.

In addition to feedback on the above, I'd like to invite everyone to add any additional spells or psis they think need our attention. I don't imagine this will be the appropriate thread to comment on the super power changes so I'll just link that here.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Tyrannosapiens Rex » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:51 am

I would suggest that proposal one allow for a choice of either a strike or a save based on what it does (CoA and call lightning would both be strikes, while for others a save might make more sense).

Bio-Manipulation is like the worst. Who would even pick any of the other options with paralysis as an option? If you simply removed it, the power would still be good enough to get picked and the other options might get used.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby CPR Krueger » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:25 am

Dark Lord wrote:And, I mean, is there anyone on this site who plays and/or GMs a spell-caster that doesn't think carpet of adhesion is broken as hell as written?


"As written" - probably. That's why it's been addressed in the House Rules already - to make it more workable. The same thing happened with Gravity Manipulation and many of the other powers. Palladium's writing is sub-par, and on that, I suspect we all agree :)

Dark Lord wrote:If we're going to introduce modifications to make powers like gravity manipulation fallible (and I think we should), we should be even-handed about doing the same to non-super abilities as well. We do have some rules for dodging them in place- why not go a step further and just make it a strike roll to make it consistent with other abilities?


This is where you lose me. Now, admittedly, I'm not well-read on super powers, but my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong here - is that they are effectively unlimited in terms of inherent restrictions; that is, one can use them as often as they like, they are automatic and cannot be interrupted, don't require spoken words, no interaction with things like armor, no "resource cost" like P.P.E./I.S.P., etc. In this regard, they are quite different from magic/psionics, which are inherently limited as to the above - magic being far more constrained than psionics, which generally only require one to spend the I.S.P.

That doesn't mean that some spells aren't broken (see below). But it does make the "let's treat them in an even-handed way" angle a bit weaker in my view, because powers don't abide any general constraints or restrictions. Powers are just in a different category altogether, and as such, can - and should - be treated differently than spells or psionics.

Dark Lord wrote:I don't think a comprehensive review of all spells and psionics is feasible or necessary, though we could certainly make that a long-term project if we so choose.


I hereby volunteer to be on the "Spell Review Task Force" :D Seriously, though. If it happens, I'm more than willing to be on board with that. Psionics too, though they tend to be mostly less problematic in my experience.

Dark Lord wrote:Therefore, I would like to introduce two proposals.

Proposal #1: Every spell effect that does not currently require a strike roll or a saving throw now requires a roll to strike to hit a particular target. This includes, off the top of my head, carpet of adhesion and call lightning. PP bonuses, and WP targeting would apply, and we can set a poll for the community to decide whether there should be an inherent strike bonus of +0/+3/+6 (based on other 'point and shoot' type powers).


DIsagree.

Call Lightning's only advantage is the lack of an attack roll or save, and that's compensated for to some degree by the limited range, casting time (6th level spells take 2 melee actions to cast, and are therefore interruptible), and inherent limitation that the bolt "shoots down from the sky" (implying it cannot be used indoors). Given that there are many ways to be electricity-resistant (or immune) in Palladium, I don't think it's overly powerful. Useful? Sure. Especially when you're behind a (transparent) wall or inside a TK force field or Energy Field. But overpowered? Nah.

Now, on to one of the more controversial spells: Carpet of Adhesion. Unlike many players who play mages (full disclosure: I play two on this site, and have played many in the past), I'm just not very impressed with CoA (or, as I like to call it, Mystic SuperGlue):
  • Very short range: 30 feet + 10 feet / level (though, confusingly, the spell description says there's a hard 90' range limit)
  • 10'x20' effective area
  • House Rules already address problems with the "as written" version of the spell.

There really aren't many spells at all that don't allow saves or require some sort of strike roll or, at least, the ones which don't require saves or strike rolls are most often the ones that don't directly target an individual or group of living targets. The ones that really tend to stand out as potentially abusive or that need clarification (CoA) can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I don't see any need for a blanket rule on this - especially given that spells are so variable in their effects and uses (which is probably the main strength of magic and is balanced by those pesky constraints).

Dark Lord wrote:Proposal #2: I personally think that the only potentially problematic psionic power is Bio-Manipulation: Paralysis. Yes, it requires a saving throw- but one failed save = a character who is immobilized for an entire battle and then some. Most good GMs would (I think) be loath to use this on players because there's no fun in being completely immobile for an entire battle; players have no such compunction about short-circuiting enemies that don't have a mind block. Therefore, I would like to propose two modifications- first, we change the duration of the entire power. I would offer up a poll with the following options for the community to choose: 4d4 minutes (cannon), 4d4 melees, and 2d4 melees. Second, for the paralytic ability, we introduce a house rule that allows the psychic to target one or more of five body parts: Head, each arm, and each leg. The normal duration of bio-manipulation is divided by the number of body parts selected- so it remains possible to completely paralyze an opponent, but the duration becomes (for example) 4d4/5 melees- on average about two melees. I think that's still enough to be an effective offensive tool in any psychic's arsenal, without completely taking out any opponent who fails their save. Psychics who opt to only paralyze part of an opponent's body can retain a longer duration. Appropriate penalties can be reasonably extrapolated from the Paralysis: Lesser spell (BoM P. 98), with the addendum that paralyzing the head simply makes communication and spell-casting impossible.


I agree. Bio-Manipulation (Paralysis) is, effectively, a "save or die" available to any Master psionic who can choose it - including first level characters- which makes it far too strong as written, in my view. I like the spirit of the proposal, but I think some areas need to be addressed:
  • "Human and animal life forms" can be affected by it, so "each arm" and "each leg" may be variably advantageous or disadvantageous (or even unclear - what if used on a snake or fish? does a tail count? etc.) on non-human opponents. I suggest the alternative of limiting the duration based upon the type of bio-manipulation, with paralysis being limited to 2 melee rounds.
  • Bio-Manipulation effects should not be extendable for additional I.S.P. without allowing for another save by the victim, and - in my estimation - a bonus equal to the iteration of said save. For example, the second save gets a +2, the third gets a +3, etc. Once a target saves and the effect ends for them, that bonus disappears, so if they are "hit again" with Bio-Manipulation (at another 10 I.S.P. cost), everything starts over.
  • Alternatively, one could just use the rules directly from the Paralysis: Lesser invocation. Which, by the way- has anyone ever seen the Paralysis: Greater invocation? :shock:

For convenience:
Paralysis: Lesser
Range: 60 feet ( 1 8.3 m).
Duration : The effect lasts one minute (4 melees) per level of experience.
Saving Throw: Standard.
P.P.E.: Five
This magic attack temporarily paralyzes a part of its victim's body;
immobilizing that particular limb. A paralyzed hand means that the person
can not pick up or hold objects or write, or use the hand in any
way. A paralyzed arm means the limb dangles uselessly at the character's
side. A paralyzed leg makes standing difficult and movement almost
impossible; reduce speed by 90%, -2 to parry and dodge. Note:
The incantation will paralyze only one limb per each invoking of the
magic. Internal organs can not be affected, so the mage can not paralyze
a heart or lung, etc. Paralysis can not affect people inside a vehicle,
robot, power armor, or environmental M.D.C. body armor.


Dark Lord wrote:In addition to feedback on the above, I'd like to invite everyone to add any additional spells or psis they think need our attention. I don't imagine this will be the appropriate thread to comment on the super power changes so I'll just link that here.


Okay, you asked for it :lol:

In my estimation, there is no more clear example of a spell in dire need of revision than Anti-Magic Cloud:
  • 100 foot radius area of effect per level of the caster - this is pretty big. Consider that a level 7 caster could cover a hair shy of an eighth of a mile with this effect - an area larger than the size of the United States Capitol building. This doesn't need to be changed, but is included to put the power of the spell into perspective - it affects a fairly large area.
  • 85% chance of completely negating all magic within the AoE. An unmodified, natural 18-20 (+P.E. bonus to save vs.magic) is required to save - and even if one does, her magic is reduced to half strength. Again, included to point out the strength of this spell already.
  • The (poorly written) exceptions of "runes and magic weapons" should be clarified. Runes? Do they mean rune weapons? Wards (which are created with runes)? What does "runes" include?
  • As written, it "cannot be dispelled magically or by manipulating elemental/atmospheric conditions"- this should be changed, in my opinion. It's a cloud. It should be able to be manipulated in the same way as any other cloud, so yes - if you're an Air Warlock (or have atmospheric spells/powers/abilities etc.) - you're now everyone's best buddy (presuming you made your save. You did make your save, right?). Disperse that bad boy! The cloud could, arguably, get a save to resist said dispersion, but it should not be disallowed outright. No, flying your SAMAS / helicopter / aircraft around won't disperse it.
  • By far, the most egregious example of the insanity of this spell is "only the creator of the cloud is not affected". This should be struck entirely from the description. No, you aren't immune as the creator. It's a blanket effect - it works for everyone caught under it, or it doesn't. There's no special exception because you made it - you unleash the AMC, you are subject to its effects. Save like everyone else.
  • I also think this spell should run its duration and be unable to be cancelled - further increasing the risk of casting it by the caster. Normally, with a few exceptions, if you cast a spell, you can cancel at any time. In the AMC's case, I say, once you cast it, it will active and there unless dispersed or the duration runs out. That said, like any spell, the duration should be able to be set when cast. A caster isn't required to use the maximum duration for a spell, and AMC should be no exception.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Dark Lord » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:53 am

I guess my main point is, similar powers shouldn't be treated differently. Leaving aside questions of fairness, it's bad from an organizational perspective to have inconsistent house rules. Why is the dodge vs. CoA a flat roll, but not vs. gravity manipulation?

I'd also argue (to take this example a little further), that PPE in this case compensates for the fact that multiple CoAs can be targeted at once. The same is not true for manipulated gravity fields.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Tiree » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:56 pm

CPR Krueger wrote:This is where you lose me. Now, admittedly, I'm not well-read on super powers, but my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong here - is that they are effectively unlimited in terms of inherent restrictions; that is, one can use them as often as they like, they are automatic and cannot be interrupted, don't require spoken words, no interaction with things like armor, no "resource cost" like P.P.E./I.S.P., etc. In this regard, they are quite different from magic/psionics, which are inherently limited as to the above - magic being far more constrained than psionics, which generally only require one to spend the I.S.P.

This is where you are wrong:

Super Powers come in all shapes and sizes just like spells and psionics. Some have power point pools, while others is based on number of attacks, or flat out a set number. Then of course you have some that have very limited functionality - and during character generation (at least for Rifts) it's all random.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby CPR Krueger » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:12 am

Tiree wrote:This is where you are wrong:

Super Powers come in all shapes and sizes just like spells and psionics. Some have power point pools, while others is based on number of attacks, or flat out a set number. Then of course you have some that have very limited functionality - and during character generation (at least for Rifts) it's all random.


If I'm wrong, what are the inherent restrictions of super powers?
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Brute » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:01 am

CPR Krueger wrote:
Tiree wrote:This is where you are wrong:

Super Powers come in all shapes and sizes just like spells and psionics. Some have power point pools, while others is based on number of attacks, or flat out a set number. Then of course you have some that have very limited functionality - and during character generation (at least for Rifts) it's all random.


If I'm wrong, what are the inherent restrictions of super powers?


I think he's literally saying that some have inherent restrictions, and some don't. You can't say they're all unlimited, because they aren't all unlimited.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby CPR Krueger » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:03 pm

Brute wrote:
CPR Krueger wrote:
Tiree wrote:I think he's literally saying that some have inherent restrictions, and some don't. You can't say they're all unlimited, because they aren't all unlimited.


Right. I wasn't saying otherwise. By inherent, I meant to denote those restrictions which are applicable to the "super powers" class, not the individual powers. Individual exceptions will exist, just as they do in spells, psionics, etc. But spell magic has inherent restrictions such as the problem with wearing full environmental armor, or metal armor that covers more than 50% of one's body, the requirement of verbal components, the resource (PPE) requirements, etc. And those restrictions apply to ALL spellcasters and magic spells, across the board. If exceptions exist, they are individually addressed; otherwise, one can count on those restrictions being in place as inherent restrictions on magic spell casting.

Do powers have uniform, across- the-board restrictions like that (what I call "inherent")?
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Tiree » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:56 pm

I am not going through the whole list of super powers - but I will cherry pick a few to give you an understanding that not everything is one or another:

I am going by your own words:
is that they are effectively unlimited in terms of inherent restrictions; that is, one can use them as often as they like, they are automatic and cannot be interrupted, don't require spoken words, no interaction with things like armor, no "resource cost" like P.P.E./I.S.P., etc. In this regard, they are quite different from magic/psionics, which are inherently limited as to the above - magic being far more constrained than psionics, which generally only require one to spend the I.S.P.


    Create Force Field: It has a Force Field Point Pool
    Power Touch: It has a Power Touch Pool

    Alter Physical Structure (all of them). The SDC provided by the power is also a 'limited resource'. As they need to regenerate (whether your in the Altered Form or not) so it takes time. They just can't 'Turn it off and back on again and be at full power' like Magic Armor!

    Gravity Manipulation: Only one sub power can be used at a time

    Multiple Beings/Selves: You create copies of yourself, but there is a limit based on level. If they die, you lose statistical points

This is just a snippet of some of the powers that are out there - just from the main book. There are even more insane powers in some additional books. Palladium defines each individual power out of a suite of powers, and then states: You can have no more than 5 maybe 6 powers if your lucky. EP alters that a little bit, but it's expensive. Magic you can learn as much as you want. Psionics, you grow with more experience. Super powers your capped.

Your points have merit, but you wanted to know what you were missing... And that is the grander picture of Super Powers. Palladium doesn't allow you to make a standard comic book super hero with infinite power.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Dark Lord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:43 am

Proposal #3: The psi-power of Astral Projection requires 4d4 minutes of preparation to use. And is useless in combat situations as a result. I would argue that the spell (BoM P. 99) as written does not have such a requirement- as a level 4 incantation it can be cast in a single action (no other spell of anywhere close to that level requires minutes of prep time). I propose we reduce the amount of concentration required to use the psi-power to a single melee round, or failing that some other (shorter) duration deemed acceptable to the community.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Ace of Spades » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:09 pm

Proposal: How about nerfing Fleet Feet

Leaving the Spell the same but only provide 3 additional APM instead of doubling the attacks.

Ohh and I agree the unlimited superpower builds in rifts is unbalancing. Should leave them in the hero realms.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby CPR Krueger » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:37 am

Dark Lord wrote:I guess my main point is, similar powers shouldn't be treated differently. Leaving aside questions of fairness, it's bad from an organizational perspective to have inconsistent house rules. Why is the dodge vs. CoA a flat roll, but not vs. gravity manipulation?

I'd also argue (to take this example a little further), that PPE in this case compensates for the fact that multiple CoAs can be targeted at once. The same is not true for manipulated gravity fields.


I agree with you that, given reasonably similar parameters, similar mechanics should be employed (i.e. dodge should apply to both CoA & Gravity Manipulation).

Not sure what you mean by "multiple CoAs can be targeted at once", though... or the context for that.

Tiree wrote:This is just a snippet of some of the powers that are out there - just from the main book. There are even more insane powers in some additional books. Palladium defines each individual power out of a suite of powers, and then states: You can have no more than 5 maybe 6 powers if your lucky. EP alters that a little bit, but it's expensive. Magic you can learn as much as you want. Psionics, you grow with more experience. Super powers your capped.

Your points have merit, but you wanted to know what you were missing... And that is the grander picture of Super Powers. Palladium doesn't allow you to make a standard comic book super hero with infinite power.


Ahh, that makes sense. So some of the powers have limitations on them as written into the power itself, but there isn't a general limitation on them otherwise.

Good to know!

Dark Lord wrote:Proposal #3: The psi-power of Astral Projection requires 4d4 minutes of preparation to use. And is useless in combat situations as a result. I would argue that the spell (BoM P. 99) as written does not have such a requirement- as a level 4 incantation it can be cast in a single action (no other spell of anywhere close to that level requires minutes of prep time). I propose we reduce the amount of concentration required to use the psi-power to a single melee round, or failing that some other (shorter) duration deemed acceptable to the community.


I don't think it's really meant for combat use in the sense that one can just pop into the Astral realm in the middle of combat.

"This magic functions exactly like the psionic power with the same name" - this implies it also requires the same preparation to use (since that is part of the description of the power itself).

Ace of Spades wrote:Proposal: How about nerfing Fleet Feet

Leaving the Spell the same but only provide 3 additional APM instead of doubling the attacks.

Ohh and I agree the unlimited superpower builds in rifts is unbalancing. Should leave them in the hero realms.


Agreed on all points.



Does anyone have a comment on my Anti-Magic Cloud takedown?
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Dark Lord » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:13 am

CPR Krueger wrote:Not sure what you mean by "multiple CoAs can be targeted at once", though... or the context for that.

I'm illustrating one of the strong advantages of CoA relative to gravity manipulation. For the former, a mage can cast one CoA every action, and have all of them active for the full duration- potentially blanketing a very large area. Gravity manipulation can only target a single area, and has to sacrifice one or more actions every round to maintain that field.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Augur » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:15 pm

I found that simply by having a single, clear, and concise ruling for knockdown effects, that a LOT of superpowers (which included a huge variety of ways of addressing this effect) were fixed by this single fix.

If there's a way to do something for a similar number of problematic spell or psionic effects, that'd be better than a bunch of one-off changes.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby CPR Krueger » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:24 pm

Does anyone see a problem with the Anti-Magic Cloud Invocation other than me?
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Vortigern » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:22 am

CPR Krueger wrote:Does anyone see a problem with the Anti-Magic Cloud Invocation other than me?


It is one of my least favorite spells and has been for years. It seems quite ridiculous as written. Just imagine a similar effect generated against energy/technology and what the reactions would be to their use when all technology was drained down to being inoperative. I could come up with a couple if I tried, I'm sure. I know of a Ward phrase/combination that could arguably have such an effect for example.

CPR Krueger wrote:In my estimation, there is no more clear example of a spell in dire need of revision than Anti-Magic Cloud:
  • 100 foot radius area of effect per level of the caster - this is pretty big. Consider that a level 7 caster could cover a hair shy of an eighth of a mile with this effect - an area larger than the size of the United States Capitol building. This doesn't need to be changed, but is included to put the power of the spell into perspective - it affects a fairly large area.
  • 85% chance of completely negating all magic within the AoE. An unmodified, natural 18-20 (+P.E. bonus to save vs.magic) is required to save - and even if one does, her magic is reduced to half strength. Again, included to point out the strength of this spell already.
  • The (poorly written) exceptions of "runes and magic weapons" should be clarified. Runes? Do they mean rune weapons? Wards (which are created with runes)? What does "runes" include?
  • As written, it "cannot be dispelled magically or by manipulating elemental/atmospheric conditions"- this should be changed, in my opinion. It's a cloud. It should be able to be manipulated in the same way as any other cloud, so yes - if you're an Air Warlock (or have atmospheric spells/powers/abilities etc.) - you're now everyone's best buddy (presuming you made your save. You did make your save, right?). Disperse that bad boy! The cloud could, arguably, get a save to resist said dispersion, but it should not be disallowed outright. No, flying your SAMAS / helicopter / aircraft around won't disperse it.
  • By far, the most egregious example of the insanity of this spell is "only the creator of the cloud is not affected". This should be struck entirely from the description. No, you aren't immune as the creator. It's a blanket effect - it works for everyone caught under it, or it doesn't. There's no special exception because you made it - you unleash the AMC, you are subject to its effects. Save like everyone else.
  • I also think this spell should run its duration and be unable to be cancelled - further increasing the risk of casting it by the caster. Normally, with a few exceptions, if you cast a spell, you can cancel at any time. In the AMC's case, I say, once you cast it, it will active and there unless dispersed or the duration runs out. That said, like any spell, the duration should be able to be set when cast. A caster isn't required to use the maximum duration for a spell, and AMC should be no exception.


These are all valid issues (especially the vague wording of given excerpts) though I'm not sure we would agree on the resolutions in any given case. And they call combine their issues into making this spell have a variety of problems.

One thing I would suggest regarding this spell, if it is retained in any form at all, is that it be elevated to being a Spell of Legend due to sheer power level. That would make it suitably expensive and rare in game to keep potential abuses of it to a minimum. Personally though I would be more in favor of removing the spell entirely.
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Re: Proposal: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Brute » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:19 am

Vortigern wrote:Just imagine a similar effect generated against energy/technology and what the reactions would be to their use when all technology was drained down to being inoperative.


Yeah, that's just an EMP.

Vortigern wrote:One thing I would suggest regarding this spell, if it is retained in any form at all, is that it be elevated to being a Spell of Legend due to sheer power level.


This.
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Re: Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Dark Lord » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:32 am

I've given this some thought, and I'm opting against pursuing a spell review any further. Folks can continue to discuss revisions to the anti-magic cloud as they see fit, but I've been convinced that a retooling is not necessary for either CoA or call lightning. I don't think there are any other spells that are potentially problematic, but if there are I'll throw in my two cents. I've also created a new thread for Bio-manipulation: Paralysis, as I think that is a modification that should still be pursued.
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Re: Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Augur » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:50 pm

You've actually mentioned how BROKEN Fleet Feet was in the podcast, DL, and I concur with that.

Energy Sphere's widespread abuse due to sloppy writing and few constraints is another.
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Re: Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby CPR Krueger » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:45 pm

Augur wrote:You've actually mentioned how BROKEN Fleet Feet was in the podcast, DL, and I concur with that.

Energy Sphere's widespread abuse due to sloppy writing and few constraints is another.


Yes, both of these make sense. Energy Sphere needs clarifications, and Fleet Feet is just plain broken as hell.

AMC should be a Spell or Legend as well, I concur. And that’s even with the problems being “fixed” - it’s just a crazy level of power as written, IMO.

Dark Lord wrote:I've given this some thought, and I'm opting against pursuing a spell review any further. Folks can continue to discuss revisions to the anti-magic cloud as they see fit, but I've been convinced that a retooling is not necessary for either CoA or call lightning. I don't think there are any other spells that are potentially problematic, but if there are I'll throw in my two cents. I've also created a new thread for Bio-manipulation: Paralysis, as I think that is a modification that should still be pursued.


Why the about-face on spell revisions, DL?
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Re: Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Dark Lord » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:22 pm

I changed my mind about those two specific spells being in need of review, and didn't feel strongly enough about the others to press the issue.
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Re: Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Augur » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:38 am

Would someone be so kind as to post the full text of each of the spells in question.

I'll post each in its own proposal thread, so we can hash out corrections for each individually.
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Re: Discussion: Spell and Psionic Review/Correction

Postby Aoife » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:00 pm

Augur wrote:Would someone be so kind as to post the full text of each of the spells in question.

I'll post each in its own proposal thread, so we can hash out corrections for each individually.


Energy Sphere 11th level invocation
Range: 100'.
Duration : Two days per level of experience, or until used up.
Saving Throw: None.
P.P.E.: One Hundred Twenty
Energy Sphere creates a globe of blue energy similar to that seen along ley lines. The mage can create this sphere through the expenditure of 120 P.P.E. but then must pump additional P.P.E. into it within the next 10 minutes or it fades away. This additional energy (up to 100 P.P.E. per level of the spell caster) must come from the mage, another sorcerer, dragon, god, blood sacrifice or drawn from a ley line nexus when energy is high (eclipse, solstice, etc.). The magic energy contained in the basketball-sized energy sphere will follow the mage wherever he goes, floating in mid-air above his right or left shoulder, and holds the energy until he needs it. This storage of potentially large amounts of energy can be drawn upon by either the mage who created it or one specific person whom the mage gives the sphere to as a gift or reward (in this case, only that person can draw upon the energy). The sphere is typically created when a practitioner of magic knows that he will need a large amount of P.P.E. to cast a high level spell, ritual or a number of spells beyond his normal limit (Le. combat, construction, dimensional travel, etc.). This spell, said to have been created by Thoth or the legendary Old Ones, is sometimes used by gods and demon lords to give their mortal minions and or champions additional power to accomplish great feats.

The energy reserve in the sphere must be used within a limited period (typically within a matter of days) or the sphere and the P.P.E. will be wasted when it fades away. The person to whom the Energy Sphere belongs can draw on the P.P.E. reserve in any increments from a few points at a time to whatever its total power reserve may be in a single spell. The sphere is impervious to most attacks but can be destroyed by 500 M.D. points and loses 2D6x10 P.P.E. per minute in an Anti-Magic Cloud. A successful Negate Magic will drain it of 6D6 P.P.E. each time a negation is cast on it, but Dispel Magic Barrier has no affect on it. Psi-Stalkers and most other P.P.E. vampires can not draw upon this concentrated and protected energy source.

Anti-Magic Cloud 11th level invocation
Range: 100' radius per level of the spell caster.
Duration : 20 melees per level of the spell caster.
Saving Throw: Special. Only a Natural (unmodified) 18, 19 or 20 saves against the cloud, and even these lucky few will find their magic reduced to half strength.
P.P.E.: One Hundred Forty

Those who are ignorant of the great old magicks insist that this spell never existed, that it is impossible, merely another myth. They are wrong. This incredible spell creates an ominous, dark gray-brown cloud large enough to hang over an entire town. It can not be dispelled magically or by manipulating elemental/atmospheric conditions. The cloud's effect is as singular as it is spectacular; it simply negates all magic! Spell casters can not use magic of any kind, Techno-Wizard devices, potions and charms are impotent. Any object of magic (except runes and magic weapons) is rendered harmless as long as it is under the Anti-Magic Cloud. The magic returns when the cloud is canceled. Only the creator of the cloud is not affected, giving that mage a tremendous advantage over other sorcerers caught in the cloud. If outside the cloud's range the magic abilities return, but any magic that enters it falters (as above) and magic spells cast from outside into the cloud covered area are negated the instant they enter the Anti-Magic Cloud.

Fleet Feet 6th level Wizard spell/invocation
Range: Self or other by spell or ritual up to 20 ft (6 m) away.
Duration: Two melee rounds per level of experience.
Saving Throw: None
P.P.E.: 20

Fleet feet is an extremely popular and powerful magic spell; it is its popularity and therefore commonness that makes it a 6th level spell.

The incantation doubles the physical prowess, speed and mobility of the enchanted person for 30 seconds (2 melee rounds) per level of the spell caster. This means the character's speed, and P.P. are doubled (providing increased P.P. bonuses to strike, parry and dodge) and perhaps most notably, the character's attacks per melee round are all doubled for the duration of the spell.

While the character is a veritable whirlwind of action, the enchantment does have some drawbacks. He is moving so fast and doing so much that the character is -2 on initiative and not likely to see a surprise attack coming (in most cases a surprise attack or strike from behind is automatic). Furthermore, the performance of delicate skills like picking locks or pockets, carving, writing, etc., are all at -20% and the character cannot control his precise movement.



I'll save the commentary for the relevant threads.
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