Dedicated OOC Chat

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Augur
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Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

This is the link for the group's Hangout chat: https://hangouts.google.com/group/efB9CWnvqZfVXfAz2

This thread will be maintained for those times when the board is a better option than Hangouts, but...

BE ACTIVE IN THE GROUP CHAT.
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Fox
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Fox »

Removed 208 gold from Fox's equipment sheet
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Thorgrim »

Completed player "level up" actions for Thorgrim
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

Have Fox & Durak's character sheets been leveled up?
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Tyral »

Augur / Ebah,

Wands [Wand Magic, Rifter #19, Pgs 25-28] are approved onsite in Rifts per: http://explorersunlimited.com/eu/viewto ... 53#p132053

Can you review for inclusion in Palladium (the actual home dimension)?
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

Tyral wrote:Augur / Ebah,

Wands [Wand Magic, Rifter #19, Pgs 25-28] are approved onsite in Rifts per: http://explorersunlimited.com/eu/viewto ... 53#p132053

Can you review for inclusion in Palladium (the actual home dimension)?
Rifter 19
Summon Grains (p.29, Rifter 19)
Trough of Water (p.29, Rifter 19)
Wand Magic
Source: p.25, Rifter 19
Wizard Ability (not a skill or a spell)
Restricted to the Palladium Fantasy Wizard O.C.C.
That's applicable site-wide, mate.

Edit: While there's an armory thread for corrupted wands/staves, there isn't one for (uncorrupted) Wands, and the canon rules for Wand creation aren't yet posted to the Magic Item Creation Rules thread.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Tyral »

L10 Rolls (Cannot Roll in Character Sheet thread)

PPE: 3d6 = 6: 2, 2, 2
HP: 1d6 = 2: 2
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

Tyral wrote:L10 Rolls (Cannot Roll in Character Sheet thread)

PPE: Original post: 3d6 = 6: 2, 2, 2
HP: Original post: 1d6 = 2: 2
The group sub forums didn't have permissions assigned--you should be able to now.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Tyral »

Augur or Ebah ... Tyral obtained a custom Magic staff, and a Flaming Knife via Alchemist.
These are on his sheet.

The agreed price was 174,000 Gold.
It still hasn't been deducted from Tyral's Bank account [Here] and I am foolishly requesting it 8)
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Predat »

F&G roll 1d10 = 6: 6 Spiritual and Determined (sub-table)
Next roll 1d4 = 2: 2 Inner Strength: Receive the minor psionic ability of Sixth Sense at no cost. (This does not make the character psionic)

MA roll 1d6 = 1: 1
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Fox »

Can not post rolls in the character thread, thus:
Hit Points: 1d6 = 5: 5
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Armstrong »

Durak F&G roll
1d10 = 9: 9
charming and well travelled - DURAK hahahahahaha

1d4 = 2: 2
+2d4 to MA 2d4 = 4: 1, 3
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Thorgrim »

Survival AT:

S.D.C. Bonus directly from Survival AT: 2d6 = 6: 3, 3

S.D.C. Bonus from Outdoorsmanship skill gained via Survival AT: 2d6 = 10: 5, 5
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

Tyral wrote:Augur or Ebah ... Tyral obtained a custom Magic staff, and a Flaming Knife via Alchemist.
These are on his sheet.

The agreed price was 174,000 Gold.
It still hasn't been deducted from Tyral's Bank account [Here] and I am foolishly requesting it 8)
Done.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Fox »

Posted a request for Fox in the EP ledger to succeed in the Stealth roll.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Predat »

hit points for leveling: 2d4 = 4: 2, 2

Fortune and glory roll: 1d10 = 5: 5 Smart and Learned

1d6 = 3: 3 Receive one New O.C.C. Related Skill
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Fox »

Looked up WP: Lance in the original PF book. It gives the following:

WP Lance (from the original book), +1 strike at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 14, +1 parry at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15, +1 throw at levels 4, 7, 10, and 13

I would like to have this entered into the Palladium Skill list.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Fox »

Hit Point Roll for Knight Level 1: 1d6 = 4: 4

Additional SDC (extra for now being a man at arms) 2d6 = 8: 5, 3
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Armstrong »

Durak HP 1d6 = 3: 3
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Tyral »

The EU Approved Rifter List references a spell called Summon Rope Invocation (from Rifter 1)

I looked through Rifter 1 and was not able to locate the spell.

There is a spell called Create Rope on Page 29 of Rifter #19.

Please advise if Create Rope (Rifter 19) is a permissible/approved. The text is below:
  • Create Rope
    Level 1
    Range: Spellcaster's Hands
    Duration: Permanent
    Amount: Up to 15ft/level of the Spellcaster
    Saving Throw: None
    PPE: 2
    This odd spell creates any adventurer's best friend, a length of rope. Uses for this obscure spell abound, such as tying up captured enemies, tying horses, hangings and others. Rope up to three inches in diameter can be created. It is normal rope.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

Correction made. Nice catch!
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Tolliver Trask »

Level 7
HP: 1d6 = 4: 4
I.S.P.: 1d6 = 5: 5
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Armstrong »

master collector stat bonuses

IQ 1d4 = 4: 4
ME 1d4 = 2: 2
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Armstrong »

f&G roll 1d10 = 7: 7 strong and tough 1d8 = 5: 5
2d4 = 7: 3, 4 to PE
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Ya-Blik »

This House Rule for the PF Dimension is rescinded and will be deleted shortly.
EBAH wrote:Other Sources of P.P.E Clarification

Drawing P.P.E. from living beings (p. 181, PFRPG)
  • 1. Drawing P.P.E. without one's knowledge banned from use in the PFRPG dimension
    2. - 6. remains unchanged
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Augur »

I have organized and vastly expanded the number of channels on Discord.
EU's Discord server set-up now mirrors that of Hangouts, only better.
Every group and game has its own channel.
Come join us! https://discord.gg/MhfX6hD
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Grace »

Hey all,

Finally got my PC sheet done. :P Looking forward to gaming with everyone!
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Predat »

Welcome Grace!!

Fortune and Glory: 1d10 = 6: 6 - Spiritual and Determined: 1d4 = 4: 4 = Strong-Willed: +3 bonus to save vs. Psionics, Mind Control, and Horror Factor
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Predat »

Time for my Quarterly F & G roll

Fortune and glory roll: 1d10 = 3: 3
A Way to Get Around: 1d4 = 4: 4
Receive the Sailing and Seamanship skills (+10% if you already have one or both)
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Diabolist contradictions and other strangenesses.

Post by Alkanar »

At the prompting of Ya-Blik, I am posting a list of apparent contradictions here:

Permanence Wards:
Area affect wards are said five times (2 on page 121, 1 on page 125, and 2 on page 126) that they cannot be used on living beings.
Permanence wards are said on page 132 that they can only be used with area affect wards, yet page 132 also has a long note about sewing a permanence ward onto a character's body to make a permanent ward with examples that are just inflict or protect + condition + permanence.
This should not be possible if area affect wards are required and cannot be placed on living beings... Unless it was done while they were dead, then they were resurrected, but then it falls into the bound area rule for area affect wards (they only affect the area around where the ward was energized, not around the ward itself).
Potential solution: Strike the area affect requirement. The material, time, and skill requirements seem steep enough. (The bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god. 120 hours, and no failed carving rolls).

Wards on items:
Page 121 says that: "Wards cannot be placed on weapons or any portable item that is used frequently unless the weapon is being put into storage." Page 125 says something similar (so does Page 126, but is specific to area affect wards), but the line right after the quote above continues with "Otherwise, the instant the item is drawn, used, bumped, or struck the wards will be set off."
So is it that you can't place the wards or you can but this will happen?

Later in the paragraph that I quoted from, it says, "Placing active wards on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot be done until the wards have been deactivated (or unless done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic)." Yum, Word soup. But in all seriousness, with a little subtraction, you can get a workable sentence. "Placing active wards on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot be done (unless done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic)." it still leads into the problem of "no, but yes".

On top of this, you have a line on page 125 that says "A Diabolist may carve, paint, or draw a number of ward symbols and affix them on items or an area and leave them without energizing them. These wards and ward phrases are can be used and energized whenever the Magic Scribe desires to do so." "Leave them" is a little unclear. Leave them where they are? Leave them unenergized?

Potential solution: Honestly this one is just muddy, but I am in favor of wards being placable on items. Partly because it gives options for more interesting things (for good or bad, depending on the cleverness of the player and GM), and partly because (I am not even going to pretend that this part is unbiased) it gives more weight to the idea that the Diabolist can carry around some unenergized wards for quick defensive use. The rules clearly state that warded objects cannot be used as hand grenades, and I am not trying to get around that but that can be better explained in my solution to the next contradiction.

Ward immunity/authorization and item use:
To be fair this one could argue that this is kind of only a contradiction if wards can be placed on items regularly handled items, although it also points out how the last one was a contradiction even more. If there is a warded weapon in storage, and the Diabolist or someone with their true name on the ward grabs the weapon to defend against a surprise attack? The Gamebook is fairly clear that "Wards are primarily defensive and protective magic" and that "They cannot be used to turn a weapon into a magic item". So the active ward should not go off when it is on something (Sword, stone, disk) that is used to strike someone. So in this case the contradiction comes from a lack of explanation.

Potential solution: I see two options, one is that when an item with an active ward is held by the Diabolist or someone with authorization, the ward is put on hold until one melee round after they are no longer holding it (or 15 seconds after, but that is harder to track). The other option is that the ward just fizzles, either immediately or after a melee round. The fizzle-ing feels kinda lame and would require re-warding just to move something across a room (or at least across a warehouse, though would ). But the put-on-hold option could also be too strong. Not only would warded objects be throwable like deployable landmines (but not with area affect, per the location lock rule) there would also be situations like if say if a Diabolist warded his leather money pouch, any thief would be in for a nasty surprise 15 seconds after lifting it off of him (Though maybe that is what he gets for trying to steal from a magical trap master). Of course, if you wanted a weapon to be permanently relatively thief-proof (there is always a chance they could save) it would need to be custom made so that the permanence ward does not throw off its balance (-1 or more to strike/parry otherwise or something), especially if it is a throwing weapon.


Inflict ward: On page 126 the gamebook says "An area affect symbol must be accompanied by a condition, protection from, protection by infliction, or an inflict ward symbol." Yet later on the same page says "Note: The inflict + condition cannot be combined with an area affect ward (see protection by infliction for area affect infliction)." which is reinforced a sentence later with "Protection by infliction is similar to the inflict and condition combo but it is placed on an object and is activated only when disturbed; it can also be combined with an area affect ward."
Potential solution: This one feels is a bit inconsequential, so I would just go with the majority rule that inflict cannot be used with area affect.

Since I am here, I also have one or two strangenesses that I have found with the Diabolist. If you take Lore: Magic at level one the secondary rolls of "Recognize magic wards, runes and circles" and "Recognize enchantment" are higher than the Diabolist's inherent versions of those skills! What is up with that? I also find the fact that such a literary OCC does not get 98% writing for native language, but thinking about it that might be reflective of our history with Latin.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Ya-Blik »

FIRST AND FOREMOST --- MAGIC DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE. IF IT DEFIES PHYSICS, IT CAN DEFY LOGIC.

=====================

Permanence Wards:
Area affect wards are said five times (2 on page 121, 1 on page 125, and 2 on page 126) that they cannot be used on living beings.
Permanence wards are said on page 132 that they can only be used with area affect wards, yet page 132 also has a long note about sewing a permanence ward onto a character's body to make a permanent ward with examples that are just inflict or protect + condition + permanence.
This should not be possible if area affect wards are required and cannot be placed on living beings... Unless it was done while they were dead, then they were resurrected, but then it falls into the bound area rule for area affect wards (they only affect the area around where the ward was energized, not around the ward itself).
  • *** Not seeing the example Formula in the book that says you could use inflict or Protect + Condition + Permanence.
    I see that Permanence can be used WITH Inflict, Protection by Infliction, Protection from, and Area Effect.
Potential solution: Strike the area affect requirement. The material, time, and skill requirements seem steep enough. (The bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god. 120 hours, and no failed carving rolls).
  • **** The language on Page 132 is: “This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and combined with an area affect ward. Once activated, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructible and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward!”

    *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and IS TRADITIONALLY combined with an area affect ward. Once activated IN THAT MANNER, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructible and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward WHERE IT WAS ACTIVATED!”

    Note also that Area Effects aren’t moveable because [Pg 126], “Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself.
  • **** The language on Page 132 FURTHER provides that: “A permanence ward can only be applied to a living creature by sewing on the character's body (other wards can be glued or sewn; area affect wards cannot be used on a living being) … After a year, the permanence ward magically bonds to the body and cannot be removed except surgically. Removing the ward inflicts 1D6x10 damage direct to the hit points of the warded person and 2D4x10 damage to everybody within a five foot (1.5 m) radius around him at the time it is removed.”

    *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “A permanence ward can only be applied to a living creature by sewing on the character's body (other wards can be glued or sewn; area affect wards cannot be used on a living being). THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM WHEN USING AN AREA EFFECT BECAUSE THE PERSON (UNLIKE THE ITEM OR PLACE AND THE ENTIRE WARD PHRASE) DOES NOT BECOME INDESTRUCTIBLE … FURTHER, [a]fter a year, the permanence ward magically bonds to the body and cannot be removed except surgically. Removing the ward inflicts 1D6x10 damage direct to the hit points of the warded person and 2D4x10 damage to everybody within a five foot (1.5 m) radius around him at the time it is removed.”

    Therefore Area Effect is not Required for Permanence Wards, but it is absolutely unavailable for Permanence + Living being.


Wards on items:
Page 121 says that: "Wards cannot be placed on weapons or any portable item that is used frequently unless the weapon is being put into storage."
Page 125 says something similar (so does Page 126, but is specific to area affect wards), but the line right after the quote above continues with "Otherwise, the instant the item is drawn, used, bumped, or struck the wards will be set off."
So is it that you can't place the wards or you can but this will happen?
  • *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “Wards cannot be SAFELY (WITHOUT THE RISK OF SETTING THEM OFF) placed on weapons or any portable item that is used frequently unless the weapon is being put into storage. Otherwise, the instant the item is drawn, used, bumped, or struck the wards will be set off.”
Later in the paragraph that I quoted from, it says, "Placing active wards on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot be done until the wards have been deactivated (or unless done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic)." Yum, Word soup. But in all seriousness, with a little subtraction, you can get a workable sentence. "Placing active wards on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot be done (unless done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic)." it still leads into the problem of "no, but yes".
  • *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “Placing active wards THAT WILL CAUSE INJURY on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot SAFELY be done WITHOUT SETTING THEM OFF (THAT CAN BE done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic WITH THE EXPECTATION THESE WILL EVENTUALLY TRIGGER).”
On top of this, you have a line on page 125 that says "A Diabolist may carve, paint, or draw a number of ward symbols and affix them on items or an area and leave them without energizing them. These wards and ward phrases are can be used and energized whenever the Magic Scribe desires to do so." "Leave them" is a little unclear. Leave them where they are? Leave them unenergized?
  • *** Yes, leave them where they are (either on a portable item, or a wall/location) in an unenergized state, to be energized at a later date/time.
Potential solution: Honestly this one is just muddy, but I am in favor of wards being placable on items. Partly because it gives options for more interesting things (for good or bad, depending on the cleverness of the player and GM), and partly because (I am not even going to pretend that this part is unbiased) it gives more weight to the idea that the Diabolist can carry around some unenergized wards for quick defensive use. The rules clearly state that warded objects cannot be used as hand grenades, and I am not trying to get around that but that can be better explained in my solution to the next contradiction.
  • *** Yes, wards are placeable on items. Can they always be safely transported, no.

Ward immunity/authorization and item use:
To be fair this one could argue that this is kind of only a contradiction if wards can be placed on items regularly handled items, although it also points out how the last one was a contradiction even more.
If there is a warded weapon in storage, and the Diabolist or someone with their true name on the ward grabs the weapon to defend against a surprise attack?
The Gamebook is fairly clear that "Wards are primarily defensive and protective magic" and that "They cannot be used to turn a weapon into a magic item".
So the active ward should not go off when it is on something (Sword, stone, disk) that is used to strike someone. So in this case the contradiction comes from a lack of explanation.
Potential solution: I see two options, one is that when an item with an active ward is held by the Diabolist or someone with authorization, the ward is put on hold until one melee round after they are no longer holding it (or 15 seconds after, but that is harder to track). The other option is that the ward just fizzles, either immediately or after a melee round. The fizzle-ing feels kinda lame and would require re-warding just to move something across a room (or at least across a warehouse, though would ). But the put-on-hold option could also be too strong. Not only would warded objects be throwable like deployable landmines (but not with area affect, per the location lock rule) there would also be situations like if say if a Diabolist warded his leather money pouch, any thief would be in for a nasty surprise 15 seconds after lifting it off of him (Though maybe that is what he gets for trying to steal from a magical trap master). Of course, if you wanted a weapon to be permanently relatively thief-proof (there is always a chance they could save) it would need to be custom made so that the permanence ward does not throw off its balance (-1 or more to strike/parry otherwise or something), especially if it is a throwing weapon.
  • *** When an item is held by the Diabolist who prepared it, or someone whose true name is inscribed on it for protection (i.e. I think in theory one could also draft a Ward-Sequence that would ONLY trigger against a single individual and be otherwise safe for anyone to handle), the ward doesn’t go off. It is not triggered. So there is no “On hold for X,” it isn’t triggered yet and will not trigger while you are holding it. If you are looking to create a mine-field, there is no throwing of a bunch of warded items, but you can place them and activate (action-1 place item, action-2 activate ward). After all, if you can make a minefield ... NPCs can as well. As drafted there is no ‘on-hold/pause’ because that would be time for a thief to get away. A money-pouch being carried around with an energized ward as you are suggesting very much risks the possibility that someone passing you in the market, or bumping you in a hallway ends up struck by lightning or a fireball or whatever … or if a comrade tried to grab you to stop you from falling when a stair collapsed, etc. Hope that helps.
Inflict ward: On page 126 the gamebook says "An area affect symbol must be accompanied by a condition, protection from, protection by infliction, or an inflict ward symbol." Yet later on the same page says "Note: The inflict + condition cannot be combined with an area affect ward (see protection by infliction for area affect infliction)." which is reinforced a sentence later with "Protection by infliction is similar to the inflict and condition combo but it is placed on an object and is activated only when disturbed; it can also be combined with an area affect ward."
Potential solution: This one feels is a bit inconsequential, so I would just go with the majority rule that inflict cannot be used with area affect.
  • *** Inflict is, in theory moveable. However, Area Effects aren’t moveable because [Pg 126], “Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself. If the warded object is moved, it goes off instantly, affecting that area. Tossing the object away will not change/move the area currently being affected.” Pg 132 also indicates “Area effect wards cannot be used with an inflict ward.” If you want something that can move and be Area-based (at the moment it goes off, the defined area does not move), that seems to be Protection-by-Infliction + Condition, but it cannot be moved while energized.
Since I am here, I also have one or two strangenesses that I have found with the Diabolist. If you take Lore: Magic at level one the secondary rolls of "Recognize magic wards, runes and circles" and "Recognize enchantment" are higher than the Diabolist's inherent versions of those skills! What is up with that? I also find the fact that such a literary OCC does not get 98% writing for native language, but thinking about it that might be reflective of our history with Latin.
  • *** Didn’t draft this class, not going to speculate. The Lore skill very specifically says it is for general info. The Class based skill has a more in depth description. If you do not want to use your Class-Skill, don’t.
    *** The class starts with 3 Literacies, including Elven (the language of scholars @ 98%). This is more than other classes including the Scholar OCC. Be thankful.
===============================

With respect to your separate PM Question, I will address that publicly as well so I can find it/amend it if I have to:

But what would be your ruling on a Diabolist carrying unenergized area affect wards for quick defense? The idea would be they are in an organized and memorized pouch to quickly draw the effect that is wanted, energize them, and then either trigger them or they get triggered by someone getting too close.
  • *** It depends. Quite frankly these things are not built for Transport. Area Effect wards must be drawn in the Diabolist's own blood (pg 123). Most things you want to inflict (fire, blind, whatever) have to be mixed with a binding agent and placed on your hopefully-quickdraw library. However if they are not activated, they are still subject to being smudged, bumped, damaged, drying up and flaking off, etc.

    Pg 124-125 --"Only the Diabolist who made it can deactivate the magic energy of an energized ward and then safely wipe, scrape or chisel away the ward symbols. The only exceptions are wards made of loose powder/dust or written in the dirt or dust. These wards can be destroyed by having its components blown away, either by a person's breath, a natural wind or a magic wind (being touched by an air elemental will activate it).
    Note: Other substances like wood carvings and powders adhered with glue or resin are magically impervious to the elements and conditions that would normally affect them, like heat, cold and solvents. This means a chest with a wax ward on it can sit in the heat of a desert for 100 years without [the Ward] melting, but once the magic has been activated, it will soften, liquify and run like normal wax."

    Once you activate a ward, it becomes less susceptible to being rubbed out, but then it carries the danger that anyone might set it off (barmaid, careless child in the market, random Wizard's pet kitten ... and surely no one would prosecute you for accidentally killing an innocent, right?).
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Alkanar
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Alkanar »

Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm FIRST AND FOREMOST --- MAGIC DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE. IF IT DEFIES PHYSICS, IT CAN DEFY LOGIC.
Can is not the same as does. Otherwise, this is a composition division falacy. Defying physics and defying logic are orders of magnitude different. The very fact that magic has rules means that it has logic, not the same logic as physics but it has it. Otherwise, the rules mean nothing and magic can be done however you want. That said, Palladium's magic is a fairly soft system. Though not as soft as say, LotR.
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm Permanence Wards:
Area affect wards are said five times (2 on page 121, 1 on page 125, and 2 on page 126) that they cannot be used on living beings.
Permanence wards are said on page 132 that they can only be used with area affect wards, yet page 132 also has a long note about sewing a permanence ward onto a character's body to make a permanent ward with examples that are just inflict or protect + condition + permanence.
This should not be possible if area affect wards are required and cannot be placed on living beings... Unless it was done while they were dead, then they were resurrected, but then it falls into the bound area rule for area affect wards (they only affect the area around where the ward was energized, not around the ward itself).

Potential solution: Strike the area affect requirement. The material, time, and skill requirements seem steep enough. (The bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god. 120 hours, and no failed carving rolls).
  • **** The language on Page 132 is: “This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and combined with an area affect ward. Once activated, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructible and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward!”

    *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and IS TRADITIONALLY combined with an area affect ward. Once activated IN THAT MANNER, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructible and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward WHERE IT WAS ACTIVATED!”

    Note also that Area Effects aren’t moveable because [Pg 126], “Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself.
  • **** The language on Page 132 FURTHER provides that: “A permanence ward can only be applied to a living creature by sewing on the character's body (other wards can be glued or sewn; area affect wards cannot be used on a living being) … After a year, the permanence ward magically bonds to the body and cannot be removed except surgically. Removing the ward inflicts 1D6x10 damage direct to the hit points of the warded person and 2D4x10 damage to everybody within a five foot (1.5 m) radius around him at the time it is removed.”

    *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “A permanence ward can only be applied to a living creature by sewing on the character's body (other wards can be glued or sewn; area affect wards cannot be used on a living being). THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM WHEN USING AN AREA EFFECT BECAUSE THE PERSON (UNLIKE THE ITEM OR PLACE AND THE ENTIRE WARD PHRASE) DOES NOT BECOME INDESTRUCTIBLE … FURTHER, [a]fter a year, the permanence ward magically bonds to the body and cannot be removed except surgically. Removing the ward inflicts 1D6x10 damage direct to the hit points of the warded person and 2D4x10 damage to everybody within a five foot (1.5 m) radius around him at the time it is removed.”
Ok, that sounds reasonable.
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm Wards on items:
Page 121 says that: "Wards cannot be placed on weapons or any portable item that is used frequently unless the weapon is being put into storage."
Page 125 says something similar (so does Page 126, but is specific to area affect wards), but the line right after the quote above continues with "Otherwise, the instant the item is drawn, used, bumped, or struck the wards will be set off."
So is it that you can't place the wards or you can but this will happen?
  • *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “Wards cannot be SAFELY (WITHOUT THE RISK OF SETTING THEM OFF) placed on weapons or any portable item that is used frequently unless the weapon is being put into storage. Otherwise, the instant the item is drawn, used, bumped, or struck the wards will be set off.”
Later in the paragraph that I quoted from, it says, "Placing active wards on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot be done until the wards have been deactivated (or unless done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic)." Yum, Word soup. But in all seriousness, with a little subtraction, you can get a workable sentence. "Placing active wards on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot be done (unless done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic)." it still leads into the problem of "no, but yes".
  • *** As best I can tell, this is the intended interpretation: “Placing active wards THAT WILL CAUSE INJURY on weapons, any small object or vehicle (cart, wagon, boat, saddle on a horse, etc.) that is being carried, moved or used just cannot SAFELY be done WITHOUT SETTING THEM OFF (THAT CAN BE done secretly as a deliberate bushwhacking tactic WITH THE EXPECTATION THESE WILL EVENTUALLY TRIGGER).”
On top of this, you have a line on page 125 that says "A Diabolist may carve, paint, or draw a number of ward symbols and affix them on items or an area and leave them without energizing them. These wards and ward phrases are can be used and energized whenever the Magic Scribe desires to do so." "Leave them" is a little unclear. Leave them where they are? Leave them unenergized?
  • *** Yes, leave them where they are (either on a portable item, or a wall/location) in an unenergized state, to be energized at a later date/time.
Potential solution: Honestly this one is just muddy, but I am in favor of wards being placable on items. Partly because it gives options for more interesting things (for good or bad, depending on the cleverness of the player and GM), and partly because (I am not even going to pretend that this part is unbiased) it gives more weight to the idea that the Diabolist can carry around some unenergized wards for quick defensive use. The rules clearly state that warded objects cannot be used as hand grenades, and I am not trying to get around that but that can be better explained in my solution to the next contradiction.
  • *** Yes, wards are placeable on items. Can they always be safely transported, no.
Ok, basically what I thought.
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm Ward immunity/authorization and item use:
To be fair this one could argue that this is kind of only a contradiction if wards can be placed on items regularly handled items, although it also points out how the last one was a contradiction even more.
If there is a warded weapon in storage, and the Diabolist or someone with their true name on the ward grabs the weapon to defend against a surprise attack?
The Gamebook is fairly clear that "Wards are primarily defensive and protective magic" and that "They cannot be used to turn a weapon into a magic item".
So the active ward should not go off when it is on something (Sword, stone, disk) that is used to strike someone. So in this case the contradiction comes from a lack of explanation.
Potential solution: I see two options, one is that when an item with an active ward is held by the Diabolist or someone with authorization, the ward is put on hold until one melee round after they are no longer holding it (or 15 seconds after, but that is harder to track). The other option is that the ward just fizzles, either immediately or after a melee round. The fizzle-ing feels kinda lame and would require re-warding just to move something across a room (or at least across a warehouse, though would ). But the put-on-hold option could also be too strong. Not only would warded objects be throwable like deployable landmines (but not with area affect, per the location lock rule) there would also be situations like if say if a Diabolist warded his leather money pouch, any thief would be in for a nasty surprise 15 seconds after lifting it off of him (Though maybe that is what he gets for trying to steal from a magical trap master). Of course, if you wanted a weapon to be permanently relatively thief-proof (there is always a chance they could save) it would need to be custom made so that the permanence ward does not throw off its balance (-1 or more to strike/parry otherwise or something), especially if it is a throwing weapon.
  • *** When an item is held by the Diabolist who prepared it, or someone whose true name is inscribed on it for protection (i.e. I think in theory one could also draft a Ward-Sequence that would ONLY trigger against a single individual and be otherwise safe for anyone to handle), the ward doesn’t go off. It is not triggered. So there is no “On hold for X,” it isn’t triggered yet and will not trigger while you are holding it. If you are looking to create a mine-field, there is no throwing of a bunch of warded items, but you can place them and activate (action-1 place item, action-2 activate ward). After all, if you can make a minefield ... NPCs can as well. As drafted there is no ‘on-hold/pause’ because that would be time for a thief to get away. A money-pouch being carried around with an energized ward as you are suggesting very much risks the possibility that someone passing you in the market, or bumping you in a hallway ends up struck by lightning or a fireball or whatever … or if a comrade tried to grab you to stop you from falling when a stair collapsed, etc. Hope that helps.
(Trigger Alarms allow a True Name to be the trigger condition (p. 133). But nowhere is inverting the backlist method mentioned.)
So you are saying it falls under the jostling rule? So you could have a permanence warded weapon but it would go off every time someone jostled the holder, thus making it impractical. That makes sense.
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm Inflict ward: On page 126 the gamebook says "An area affect symbol must be accompanied by a condition, protection from, protection by infliction, or an inflict ward symbol." Yet later on the same page says "Note: The inflict + condition cannot be combined with an area affect ward (see protection by infliction for area affect infliction)." which is reinforced a sentence later with "Protection by infliction is similar to the inflict and condition combo but it is placed on an object and is activated only when disturbed; it can also be combined with an area affect ward."
Potential solution: This one feels is a bit inconsequential, so I would just go with the majority rule that inflict cannot be used with area affect.
  • *** Inflict is, in theory moveable. However, Area Effects aren’t moveable because [Pg 126], “Area effect wards can only be placed on immobile or stationary objects, because the area affected becomes magically centered on the spot where the ward is first activated, not on the ward or the object itself. If the warded object is moved, it goes off instantly, affecting that area. Tossing the object away will not change/move the area currently being affected.” Pg 132 also indicates “Area effect wards cannot be used with an inflict ward.” If you want something that can move and be Area-based (at the moment it goes off, the defined area does not move), that seems to be Protection-by-Infliction + Condition, but it cannot be moved while energized.
This part was not talking about movability, just that in one place it says that inflict can be used with Area Affect, but in two other places, it says it can't. I am inclined to go with it can't, and it seems you are too.
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm Since I am here, I also have one or two strangenesses that I have found with the Diabolist. If you take Lore: Magic at level one the secondary rolls of "Recognize magic wards, runes and circles" and "Recognize enchantment" are higher than the Diabolist's inherent versions of those skills! What is up with that? I also find the fact that such a literary OCC does not get 98% writing for native language, but thinking about it that might be reflective of our history with Latin.
  • *** Didn’t draft this class, not going to speculate. The Lore skill very specifically says it is for general info. The Class based skill has a more in depth description. If you do not want to use your Class-Skill, don’t.
    *** The class starts with 3 Literacies, including Elven (the language of scholars @ 98%). This is more than other classes including the Scholar OCC. Be thankful.
Fair, I guess it is a case of specific knowledge vs general. But if a character has both how do they roll? Could I say, roll Diabolist Recognize Enchantment for high information and then roll Lore: Magic (Recognize Enchantment) as a failure contingency for medium information?

Was not meaning to come across as complaining, just found it a little odd. But like I mentioned I think it kind of fits with what how Latin was in medieval times IIR, scholarly people could be better with Latin than their native written language.
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm With respect to your separate PM Question, I will address that publicly as well so I can find it/amend it if I have to:

But what would be your ruling on a Diabolist carrying unenergized area affect wards for quick defense? The idea would be they are in an organized and memorized pouch to quickly draw the effect that is wanted, energize them, and then either trigger them or they get triggered by someone getting too close.
  • *** It depends. Quite frankly these things are not built for Transport. Area Effect wards must be drawn in the Diabolist's own blood (pg 123). Most things you want to inflict (fire, blind, whatever) have to be mixed with a binding agent and placed on your hopefully-quickdraw library. However if they are not activated, they are still subject to being smudged, bumped, damaged, drying up and flaking off, etc.

    Pg 124-125 --"Only the Diabolist who made it can deactivate the magic energy of an energized ward and then safely wipe, scrape or chisel away the ward symbols. The only exceptions are wards made of loose powder/dust or written in the dirt or dust. These wards can be destroyed by having its components blown away, either by a person's breath, a natural wind or a magic wind (being touched by an air elemental will activate it).
    Note: Other substances like wood carvings and powders adhered with glue or resin are magically impervious to the elements and conditions that would normally affect them, like heat, cold and solvents. This means a chest with a wax ward on it can sit in the heat of a desert for 100 years without [the Ward] melting, but once the magic has been activated, it will soften, liquify and run like normal wax."

    Once you activate a ward, it becomes less susceptible to being rubbed out, but then it carries the danger that anyone might set it off (barmaid, careless child in the market, random Wizard's pet kitten ...).
I will move my follow-up reply here as well then.

The idea was that they would be small wood panels with the symbols carved into them and then the symbols painted with the ward material, these indented symbols should be less prone to wear. And he would carry wards of various lethality, mostly non-lethal status such as sleep, blind, despair, maybe cold, and only a few of the stronger ones. And would of course only use them when he has space (remember he can control the radius in increments of 5"), or when pressed, maybe some non-lethal ones. If laying a trap he would not use them if he had the time to make a normal ward, they are primarily for when he does not have time. He would also deactivate and recycle materials whenever possible.
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Ya-Blik »

Alkanar wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:06 pm
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm FIRST AND FOREMOST --- MAGIC DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE. IF IT DEFIES PHYSICS, IT CAN DEFY LOGIC.
Can is not the same as does. Otherwise, this is a composition division falacy. Defying physics and defying logic are orders of magnitude different. The very fact that magic has rules means that it has logic, not the same logic as physics but it has it. Otherwise, the rules mean nothing and magic can be done however you want. That said, Palladium's magic is a fairly soft system. Though not as soft as say, LotR.
  • You are not entirely incorrect. In my line of work, we refer to that as assuming facts that are not in evidence, and/or reliance upon an incomplete hypothetical. However, sometimes X+X does not = 2X in magic. I am not going to try and justify or debate every exception. If that is your interest, well, it will likely go unfulfilled. I am interested in making the rules predictable for both the Players and the NPCs, so I dont mind resolving contradictions.
==========================================
Alkanar wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:06 pm
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm With respect to your separate PM Question, I will address that publicly as well so I can find it/amend it if I have to:

But what would be your ruling on a Diabolist carrying unenergized area affect wards for quick defense? The idea would be they are in an organized and memorized pouch to quickly draw the effect that is wanted, energize them, and then either trigger them or they get triggered by someone getting too close.
  • *** It depends. Quite frankly these things are not built for Transport. Area Effect wards must be drawn in the Diabolist's own blood (pg 123). Most things you want to inflict (fire, blind, whatever) have to be mixed with a binding agent and placed on your hopefully-quickdraw library. However if they are not activated, they are still subject to being smudged, bumped, damaged, drying up and flaking off, etc.

    Pg 124-125 --"Only the Diabolist who made it can deactivate the magic energy of an energized ward and then safely wipe, scrape or chisel away the ward symbols. The only exceptions are wards made of loose powder/dust or written in the dirt or dust. These wards can be destroyed by having its components blown away, either by a person's breath, a natural wind or a magic wind (being touched by an air elemental will activate it).
    Note: Other substances like wood carvings and powders adhered with glue or resin are magically impervious to the elements and conditions that would normally affect them, like heat, cold and solvents. This means a chest with a wax ward on it can sit in the heat of a desert for 100 years without [the Ward] melting, but once the magic has been activated, it will soften, liquify and run like normal wax."

    Once you activate a ward, it becomes less susceptible to being rubbed out, but then it carries the danger that anyone might set it off (barmaid, careless child in the market, random Wizard's pet kitten ...).
I will move my follow-up reply here as well then.

The idea was that they would be small wood panels with the symbols carved into them and then the symbols painted with the ward material, these indented symbols should be less prone to wear. And he would carry wards of various lethality, mostly non-lethal status such as sleep, blind, despair, maybe cold, and only a few of the stronger ones. And would of course only use them when he has space (remember he can control the radius in increments of 5"), or when pressed, maybe some non-lethal ones. If laying a trap he would not use them if he had the time to make a normal ward, they are primarily for when he does not have time. He would also deactivate and recycle materials whenever possible.
The main book actually is pretty clear on a minimum time for Ward creation (Pg 124). Even if you had something previously carved and just wanted to trace your blood into the prior carved area.

For instance, "Area affect wards must be drawn with the Diabolist's own blood" (Pg 123)

"Area affect: Drawn or painted: one melee round; carved, two hours." [Honestly the carved inclusion seems odd since you can't really carve with your blood, but one would presume this is carving in the symbol, then you can paint with your blood in 1 melee round]

"Conditions: Drawn or painted takes two melee rounds (30 seconds); carved and glued, three hours."

"Protection (both): Drawn or painted: one melee round; carved, four hours."

"The ward symbol must be clear, clean and easily recognizable." (Pg 124) -- This indicates you cannot really paint over your blood, etc., and have the thing still work.

Wards, compared to other magic, have a kind of obscenely low PPE cost for their effect and duration. So, like with Prayer (for PF Gods and their Miracles), part of the process is the time put into the creation.

You cannot really expect that at 6th level you can create a template carved plate with:

Protection by Infliction + Area Effect + Death for 3 PPE

... slap it down on the ground, then have it go off 10 years later for 6d6 of HP damage to a 40ft Radius so that you could pick up the plank, and have it ready to re-use in 4 melees instead of 9 hours. You've got to make a new one.

"A ward symbol can only be energized and used as a magic ward once. After it has been triggered and its magic unleashed, the symbol
is harmless and cannot be energized again. Not even Diabolists are certain of the reason for this
. Most contend that part of the ward's
energy comes from the physical making of the ward and the focus and willpower of the maker — a rather inconspicuous aspect of ward creation." [Pg 125]
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Re: Dedicated OOC Chat

Post by Alkanar »

Ya-Blik wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:04 pm
Alkanar wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:06 pm
Ya-Blik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:07 pm With respect to your separate PM Question, I will address that publicly as well so I can find it/amend it if I have to:

But what would be your ruling on a Diabolist carrying unenergized area affect wards for quick defense? The idea would be they are in an organized and memorized pouch to quickly draw the effect that is wanted, energize them, and then either trigger them or they get triggered by someone getting too close.
  • *** It depends. Quite frankly these things are not built for Transport. Area Effect wards must be drawn in the Diabolist's own blood (pg 123). Most things you want to inflict (fire, blind, whatever) have to be mixed with a binding agent and placed on your hopefully-quickdraw library. However if they are not activated, they are still subject to being smudged, bumped, damaged, drying up and flaking off, etc.

    Pg 124-125 --"Only the Diabolist who made it can deactivate the magic energy of an energized ward and then safely wipe, scrape or chisel away the ward symbols. The only exceptions are wards made of loose powder/dust or written in the dirt or dust. These wards can be destroyed by having its components blown away, either by a person's breath, a natural wind or a magic wind (being touched by an air elemental will activate it).
    Note: Other substances like wood carvings and powders adhered with glue or resin are magically impervious to the elements and conditions that would normally affect them, like heat, cold and solvents. This means a chest with a wax ward on it can sit in the heat of a desert for 100 years without [the Ward] melting, but once the magic has been activated, it will soften, liquify and run like normal wax."

    Once you activate a ward, it becomes less susceptible to being rubbed out, but then it carries the danger that anyone might set it off (barmaid, careless child in the market, random Wizard's pet kitten ...).
I will move my follow-up reply here as well then.

The idea was that they would be small wood panels with the symbols carved into them and then the symbols painted with the ward material, these indented symbols should be less prone to wear. And he would carry wards of various lethality, mostly non-lethal status such as sleep, blind, despair, maybe cold, and only a few of the stronger ones. And would of course only use them when he has space (remember he can control the radius in increments of 5"), or when pressed, maybe some non-lethal ones. If laying a trap he would not use them if he had the time to make a normal ward, they are primarily for when he does not have time. He would also deactivate and recycle materials whenever possible.
The main book actually is pretty clear on a minimum time for Ward creation (Pg 124). Even if you had something previously carved and just wanted to trace your blood into the prior carved area.

For instance, "Area affect wards must be drawn with the Diabolist's own blood" (Pg 123)

"Area affect: Drawn or painted: one melee round; carved, two hours." [Honestly the carved inclusion seems odd since you can't really carve with your blood, but one would presume this is carving in the symbol, then you can paint with your blood in 1 melee round]

"Conditions: Drawn or painted takes two melee rounds (30 seconds); carved and glued, three hours."

"Protection (both): Drawn or painted: one melee round; carved, four hours."

"The ward symbol must be clear, clean and easily recognizable." (Pg 124) -- This indicates you cannot really paint over your blood, etc., and have the thing still work.

Wards, compared to other magic, have a kind of obscenely low PPE cost for their effect and duration. So, like with Prayer (for PF Gods and their Miracles), part of the process is the time put into the creation.

You cannot really expect that at 6th level you can create a template carved plate with:

Protection by Infliction + Area Effect + Death for 3 PPE

... slap it down on the ground, then have it go off 10 years later for 6d6 of HP damage to a 40ft Radius so that you could pick up the plank, and have it ready to re-use in 4 melees instead of 9 hours. You've got to make a new one.

"A ward symbol can only be energized and used as a magic ward once. After it has been triggered and its magic unleashed, the symbol
is harmless and cannot be energized again. Not even Diabolists are certain of the reason for this
. Most contend that part of the ward's
energy comes from the physical making of the ward and the focus and willpower of the maker — a rather inconspicuous aspect of ward creation." [Pg 125]
Yes, I am aware of all those conditions. The idea was for them to be fully made and just waiting to be energized, as a just-in-case measure for when there is no time to make normal runes (because the best magic users are the prepared magic users). The extra time required for the carving of the planks means he would not waste them when he has the time to make normal runes.

The recycling part was for the components:

"Although the ward symbol can only be magically energized once, many components used to make a ward, like silver and gold dust, powdered stone, and so on can be reused once the ward has been triggered and its magic spent. This is done by removing the ward from the object and returning it to its base component parts; typically involving heat, melting and solvents to separate and extract the components (basic chemistry). This recycling of materials is a common, cost saving practice." [Pg 125]
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